pennzoil ULTRA PLATINUM 5W-30 OIL

[Napalm]

enter nothing.

y'all missed the bit about shipped to my house. I don't even have to walk in the melonfarmer. win win.

I will say if the shipping cost money I'd have walked in and picked it up though.

[Napalm]

OH and there's a rebate on too

[hflores3]

While I'll agree in general, I contend.

Same oils but different quanties:

1) Car with a 4-5 quart sump. Probably not recommended to go 10,000 miles unless you run a solid synthetic with quality base stocks. 5,000 is probably the max.
2) Car with 9-10 quart sump. Probably no problem to go 10,000. Why? Because there is 2x the additives etc.. available for the engine to consume. More oil means the degradation of all the additives that 10quarts of oil will be used up slower.

Your contention is absolutely respected.

However, with all due respect - I don't think "tribology" (i.e., the study of friction, wear, lubrication, the design of bearings; the science of interacting surfaces in relative motion) works - as you describe (related to volume in the sump)

Oil degration is not determined by the “volume” of oil. Rather …..

1. Dirt containing fine metal particles can be a shitty catalyst that speeds up the degradation process of our lubricant. Air and water provides a source of oxygen that reacts with the oil and leads to oxidation of the lubricant.
2. Oxidation is our primary oil degradation mechanism. Its the chemical reaction that naturally occurs between the oil and oxygen. Can't get around it
3. Additive Depletion reduces the performance, protection, and service life of lubricants. When they are being used (cars trucks – you name it), additive levels constantly deplete which reduces the oil’s ability to resist oxidation and limits oil service life. Additive depletion is accelerated by stuff like acids, water and fine metals. Monitoring oil and replenishing the fluid’s additive package regularly helps maintain fluid performance. Oil volume in the sump is not part of the equation.
4. Contamination of fluids by foreign substances (solids, liquids or gases) can significantly accelerate fluid degradation and create a whole bunch of other crappy problems. Stuff that is in engines creates its own contaminants (acid byproducts of oxidation, fine metals (rust and wear particles). It’s just a normal part of the combustion process.

For every 100 gallons of gasoline burned in an internal combustion engine …. You end up with:

1. 90 gals of water
2. 3-10 gals of unburned gasoline
3. ½ - 2lbs of soot
4. ¼ - 1 lb of varnish
5. 1 – 4 lbs of Nitric Acid

So I will certainly NOT be taking MY CAR to the 10,000 mile oil change interval. No way! I have too much invested in my engine. I speak for myself and myself alone. By the way, the aforementioned are industry facts.

[Jeff92se]

Your contention is absolutely respected.

However, with all due respect - I don't think "tribology" (i.e., the study of friction, wear, lubrication, the design of bearings; the science of interacting surfaces in relative motion) works - as you describe (related to volume in the sump)

Oil degration is not determined by the “volume” of oil. Rather …..

1. Dirt containing fine metal particles can be a shitty catalyst that speeds up the degradation process of our lubricant. Air and water provides a source of oxygen that reacts with the oil and leads to oxidation of the lubricant.
2. Oxidation is our primary oil degradation mechanism. Its the chemical reaction that naturally occurs between the oil and oxygen. Can't get around it
3. Additive Depletion reduces the performance, protection, and service life of lubricants. When they are being used (cars trucks – you name it), additive levels constantly deplete which reduces the oil’s ability to resist oxidation and limits oil service life. Additive depletion is accelerated by stuff like acids, water and fine metals. Monitoring oil and replenishing the fluid’s additive package regularly helps maintain fluid performance. Oil volume in the sump is not part of the equation.
4. Contamination of fluids by foreign substances (solids, liquids or gases) can significantly accelerate fluid degradation and create a whole bunch of other crappy problems. Stuff that is in engines creates its own contaminants (acid byproducts of oxidation, fine metals (rust and wear particles). It’s just a normal part of the combustion process.

For every 100 gallons of gasoline burned in an internal combustion engine …. You end up with:

1. 90 gals of water
2. 3-10 gals of unburned gasoline
3. ½ - 2lbs of soot
4. ¼ - 1 lb of varnish
5. 1 – 4 lbs of Nitric Acid

So I will certainly NOT be taking MY CAR to the 10,000 mile oil change interval. No way! I have too much invested in my engine. I speak for myself and myself alone. By the way, the aforementioned are industry facts.

Your concerns are valid. But the QUANTITY of oil also has a great effect on change intervals. I think you're missing this point. With two of the same oils in the same engine with similar usages. The more oil you have, the longer the oil will last before it needs to be changed. It's why all the cars with larger sumps have a longer recommended change interval. ie.. BMWs, G8s etc... do these engines run better/cleaner etc?? No. It's the sump capacity that's the difference.

Now I didn't mean to say to demand that everyone run to 10k before changing their oil. That depends on mostly how the engine is run/built/operating conditions etc... And only a Blackstone labs could really tell you what the oil's actual condition is. What I'm saying is that our 9-10 qt sumps will greatly increase the safe interchange interval. If you're still changing the oil a 3k, that's a complete waste of time. 5k is probably way too soon.

This is IMHO for a basically stock engine. If you have a built motor or if it's forced inducted in anyway, all bets are off.

[Napalm]

so having be involved in implementation of OLM systems.

One of the biggest benefits of having more sump capacity with respect to useable oil life has to do with oil temp and cooling cycles. More oil - tends to run cooler - and breakdown less. It also keeps the engine cooler to a certain degree - some 1/3 of your engine cooling is done via oil path. This surprises quite a few people.

The second - as mentioned is the increase in anit-foam capacity - and acid absorption. Do you know why most OLM meters top out around 10K miles - it's not always about the oil. It's about your filter.

your car while having a bypass value in the oil filter doesn't have a light to tell you it's bypassed. So in the design of the OLM it was also measured approximately how long it takes to clog up the filter enough to bypass it. (short of drastic things like running with no air filter - failed PCV etc etc).

and 10K miles is about half of what it takes before the filter is useless. so the 10K top spec is more about getting your old oil filter off the engine.

[Chewy]

I run the Mobil 5W-20 20,000 mile oil in my 2017 Durango R/T along with their specific filter and change it every 10,000. I put a lot of interstate miles on it, but some city too.

[hflores3]

Your concerns are valid. But the QUANTITY of oil also has a great effect on change intervals. I think you're missing this point. With two of the same oils in the same engine with similar usages. The more oil you have, the longer the oil will last before it needs to be changed. It's why all the cars with larger sumps have a longer recommended change interval. ie.. BMWs, G8s etc... do these engines run better/cleaner etc?? No. It's the sump capacity that's the difference.

Now I didn't mean to say to demand that everyone run to 10k before changing their oil. That depends on mostly how the engine is run/built/operating conditions etc... And only a Blackstone labs could really tell you what the oil's actual condition is. What I'm saying is that our 9-10 qt sumps will greatly increase the safe interchange interval. If you're still changing the oil a 3k, that's a complete waste of time. 5k is probably way too soon.

This is IMHO for a basically stock engine. If you have a built motor or if it's forced inducted in anyway, all bets are off.

Great chat!

Quantity of oil (all things being carefully controlled; variables accounted for...) then yes - has an effect on oil additive pack protection and thus oil change intervals.

The challenge is driving conditions are "rarely" controlled. They rarely are ...

Driving conditions play the largest part in the degradation of oil additives. So the 8.8 quarts in our sump, I would “argue,” is not an automatic “pass” to longer intervals (even as a suggestion). The variables are too vast …..

a) stop and go driving
b) dusty conditions
c) heavy loads
d) short drives
e) hard driving.

I don’t think it’s a case of oil change “hypochondria” on my part - rather – maintaining a WELL lubricated engine in the pursuit of engine longevity.

Ever notice how the oils are getting thinner and thinner while intervals are being marketed as longer and longer? The thinner oil is in pursuit of CAFÉ fuel economy.

The longer intervals are in the pursuit of the magic 100k mark. You can get to 100k miles easy with extended oil change intervals. Easy. However, after 100k miles – the manufacturer is done with their warranty obligation to you. So, in my cynical mind – longer intervals is a marketing value proposition: “ease of operation.”

The pattern seems to be producing fewer and fewer domestic vehicles running to up to the 175,000 - 250,000 mile mark these days. Shoot, domestic makes used to hit these marks by using the old “every 3,000 miles” The old "straight six, 283, 327, 350 could hit those marks -- but back then - our dads lived by the "every 3,000 miles" which meant the additive packs were refreshed often! But I don’t see many of those mile markers being hit by many domestics any more (in the aggregate).

My cynicism is that thinner oils + longer intervals = repair --- LONG after the warranty has ended.

[hflores3]

so having be involved in implementation of OLM systems.

One of the biggest benefits of having more sump capacity with respect to useable oil life has to do with oil temp and cooling cycles. More oil - tends to run cooler - and breakdown less. It also keeps the engine cooler to a certain degree - some 1/3 of your engine cooling is done via oil path. This surprises quite a few people.

1) Great reminder on the Quantity of oil as a "cooling" strategy! I overlooked that. You, sir, are spot on! Gracias.
2) The oil filter life span -- another great catch!

[Napalm]

It's why I tell people to use the OLM - for most it's remarkably accurate. and people get testy because "well it's always ______miles every time" or etc.

Thing is - most people drive exactly the same way day in and day out. SO image that.

But to someone else's comment it's also designed around the car as built. So for you guys with headers, cams, . . . . . . . whatever you need to be on a different schedule. Even though I run a cam in mine I still go more than 6K on oil changes. and I still trade the filter out half way between changes. I r weird though.

[donkeyGT]

So what about the actual AGE of the so called oil? Here in MI my car sits idle for about 6 months..I always change it and filter in the spring regardless of miles (some years only around 500). I have been told you should never leave oil in a car for over a year regardless. Thoughts? There must be some kind of shelf life yes? I only have 23K on the car and maybe my analness is overkilling it? BTW I use Mobil 1 full synthetic.