Lets talk about CAMS!

[Last_ResorT_G8]

Ok Charlie, I was browsing through the livernois site and notice that they have quite a few l92 cams. Also I dont know if anyone is familiar with HPE but I was thinking about talking to chuck over there and having him custom grind me a cam and making up a nice cam package. The only thing im not sure of is what would the specs be of a cam with a 2000rpm-6200rpm or higher gain. To sum it all up im looking for a cam with a midrange to top end punch, but at the same time I want to be different and not just go with a regular run of the mill cam that everyone will get come time they want to upgrade. Any suggestions are welcomed.

[GRRRR8]

I went with the LS3 HOT cam due to the impressive power and torque
(480/475) in a 6.2. Not to mention the stealth idle it has. I obviously am scraping DOD and am also doing a little head work and bumping compression from 10.4 to 10.9. Doing this means valves, valve springs, hardened push rods etc. With my current bolt ons I cant see not being 425-450 at the wheels. After I have my fun and DOD is gone so cam swaps are easy, I will put a much larger bump stick in it. But this combo will be more then enough with ported intake and throttle body and other supporting mods to run hi 11s and be STEALTH!

[Blackdevil77]

I want the LS3 cam also. Only thing is people are telling me that my idle will be all messed up. Also, what else HAS to be changed to keep with the LS3 cam? Is this pricey? screw DOD lol.

[GRRRR8]

It is the smoothest idle of the small cams. Do a search and read for yourself. Lifters, lifter buckets, cam gear, chain damper, pushrods, valley cover, gaskets, head bolts, retune will all be part of the list.

[Mike P]

I could be okay with just low 12's, so I'm leaning toward going with a very mild DOD cam, like the one New Era tested and got like 51 HP bump.

But like Charlie I want a stealth sound at idle with very little to no lope.

If I stick with a DOD cam with the supporting mods be minimal as apposed to going with a non DOD cam getting rid of all the DOD internal stuff?

....

[GRRRR8]

I just dont trust the DOD lifters. Mine make noise after 4 or 5 passes and they have to come out before they come apart!

[Andy@Livernois]

I agree. The lifters and springs aren't designed to support a larger camshaft. it may work now, but I would be worried for the longterm durability of it...

[G8Smitty]

If this is not a fair question, I appologize.

If I were wanting to do a LS3 Hot Cam swap (professionally installed), what would be a ball park figure to get it done correctly? It is something I am intersted in too. I think that the AFM is crap and I love to get more power out of an engine that has plenty more to give. $1,500?

[G8GT594]

I am worried about long term. So the way i see it if the lifters and springs are going to have problems in the long run, ill just scrap DOD and get a nice size cam and replace all the supporting parts. But on the other hand who knows, what if the stock stuff can support a small/mild cam. Guess ill wait for a while and see what happens.

[Crazy Paul]

I agree. The lifters and springs aren't designed to support a larger camshaft. it may work now, but I would be worried for the longterm durability of it...

I think the guy who designed the lifters may have worked in a clock factory at one time.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/PerthPurplePenguin/car%20parts/L76/DOD20DEAC20Lifter20Disassembled.jpg

[GeorgeInNePa]

Looks like German engineering, "why use one part when ten will work".


lol

[Andy@Livernois]

I just sold a package not too long ago. it runs down like this:

cam 385 (for any of ours)
pushrods 112
lifters 130
valley tray/gasket 30-100 depending on where you find it (just get a core ls2)
valve spring kit 330
lifter buckets 45
head bolts 110
head gaskets 80

I think thats everything :D
t/c components 125ish (for billet)

[Andy@Livernois]

I think the guy who designed the lifters may have worked in a clock factory at one time.




It's an impressive piece of engineering, but just like Ford's VCT system for the 3v, when you mod it it usually has issues, maybe not now, but it's usually garunteed within 10k miles it will fail.

If I were leaving it dead stock I wouldn't worry at all about the durability, but putting in a cam... No thanks...

[GRRRR8]

GOT TO GO! If I have any worries at all, its about exploding 1 of those lifters at hi RPMs. I actually have been keeping the Rs to 6000 just not to worry about it as much.

[GeorgeInNePa]

So, you mean pegging the limiter all the time isn't good?


lol


;)

[wreckwriter]

So, you mean pegging the limiter all the time isn't good?


lol


;)

Yea................

[GRRRR8]

I think that is my biggest issue, but it is a fuel cut off not a cylinder cut out type, so that shouldnt be the issue. I just dont think it can handle how fast my car revs and the hi-rpms. I only have 2700 miles!

[GeorgeInNePa]

I'll turn 7000 on the way to work today.

[Crazy Paul]

Has GM fitted a DOD engine to anything with a manual trans yet ?

[Andy@Livernois]

I'll turn 7000 on the way to work today.

RPM? Sweet :D

[Andy@Livernois]

Has GM fitted a DOD engine to anything with a manual trans yet ?

No they have not. I don't think the system has the speed to handle something like that...

[GRRRR8]

rpm? Sweet :d


He Wishes!!!

[Crazy Paul]

No they have not. I don't think the system has the speed to handle something like that...

It would probably sound like an old school trucker upshifting with the Jake brake turned on , until they got it fully sorted.

[GeorgeInNePa]

He Wishes!!!

You're damn right!



lol


I'll settle for 6500 when I change the cam/valvetrain.

[GRRRR8]

Thats what I will be shifting at!

[G8GT594]

It's an impressive piece of engineering, but just like Ford's VCT system for the 3v, when you mod it it usually has issues, maybe not now, but it's usually garunteed within 10k miles it will fail.

If I were leaving it dead stock I wouldn't worry at all about the durability, but putting in a cam... No thanks...

So are you saying if you do swap out the cam just to go ahead and upgrade the the lifters, etc? For durability purposes?

[Andy@Livernois]

That is exactly what I am saying... GM ran that small of a cam for a reason with that system. If you are upgrading, do it once, do it right... Also, I personally would run a bigger cam then an LS3 hot cam... but thats me :D

something like maybe this:

http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/downloads/Images/camspecl92stg1.jpg

[GRRRR8]

The problem is, why have such a big cam and lopey idle if you can get 500 without it. It would seem the smallest of the cams installed by NE has the fastest ETs.

[Andy@Livernois]

This is the cam we developed for 6.0's w/ l92 heads. I will get some dyno info on it for ya. Driveability is awesome with it btw...

[GRRRR8]

By no means am I questioning you. I have had too many PMs about a smooth idle cam and thats why I am doing the HOT cam. That way we will know for sure and after that my cam swaps will be boogity boogity! lol

[Andy@Livernois]

I was just adding the info. I know you weren't questioning me :D

here is a vid of an A6 LS3 car with that cam...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVZYh9gQ1p4

[G8GT594]

Now if you wanted to keep the car as a daily driver would you want to go with a smaller cam? Sorry for the noob questions, im kinda new to cams.

[Andy@Livernois]

that cam I posted is perfect for daily driver status... we have it in an 07 convertible vette A6 that makes over 650 RWHP with that cam and boost, and it still gets 27-28 mpg on the high way (29 if you only do 70 :D ) and it just has a hint of lope to it. It is my favorite car we have done...

[G8GT594]

that cam I posted is perfect for daily driver status... we have it in an 07 convertible vette A6 that makes over 650 RWHP with that cam and boost, and it still gets 27-28 mpg on the high way (29 if you only do 70 :D ) and it just has a hint of lope to it. It is my favorite car we have done...

From some other dynos ive been looking at people are getting around 400-410rwhp. I want to say there is a member on here putting down around 400rwhp with a 228/240. I wonder how much more the trans could handle considering the car is 3900lbs

[Andy@Livernois]

well that vette has a dead stock A6 in it and over 17k miles with no issues. It is now just starting to let go though. But it makes about 150hp more, weighs about the same (guy that drive it is one big dude plus it's a convert.) and is street raced/abused every day of it's life...

In other words, I wouldn't worry one bit...

[G8GT594]

well that vette has a dead stock A6 in it and over 17k miles with no issues. It is now just starting to let go though. But it makes about 150hp more, weighs about the same (guy that drive it is one big dude plus it's a convert.) and is street raced/abused every day of it's life...

In other words, I wouldn't worry one bit...

Good to hear. My main goal is to make around 400rwhp and 380rwtq. I know it acheviable but i also want to make sure the car can still maintain being a daily driver. Just out of curiosity what would it cost to get this done and changing out the supporting components. Also im going to assume i made a bad choice by going with the 1 3/4 headers if im going to go the cam route.

[GRRRR8]

No. Just dont over cam it.

[Andy@Livernois]

I wouldn't say its a "bad" choice. Could you make a little more with an 1 7/8"? sure, but its not like we are talking about 20hp, we are talking 5ish. Don't sweat it... I will have to get the quote for you on this tomorrow as everyone else is gone for the night...

[G8GT594]

I wouldn't say its a "bad" choice. Could you make a little more with an 1 3/4"? sure, but its not like we are talking about 20hp, we are talking 5ish. Don't sweat it... I will have to get the quote for you on this tomorrow as everyone else is gone for the night...

O man im a moron. I meant to type 1 7/8. My bad, i have 1 3/4 installed right now. So the 1 3/4 setup would be actually make a few more HP than the 1 7/8. Sorry for the confusion.

[Andy@Livernois]

i'm the idiot :D it was supposed to say "could you make a little more if you had gone bigger then 1 3/4"

[G8GT594]

i'm the idiot :D it was supposed to say "could you make a little more if you had gone bigger then 1 3/4"

I see ha. Ok i get what you mean now. Aw well 5hp is not that big of a deal to me. Would it be better to stick with a non-DOD cam? Would it be more reliable than a DOD cam? Im not concerned about mileage. Wouldnt of bought the car if i was:cool2:

[GRRRR8]

Just say NO to DOD!:no1:

[-Ray-]

Unless you enjoy getting 30 mpg on the Interstate.

[Andy@Livernois]

scrap the dod and have some real fun. trust me, if we can get 27+ mpg out of an A6 650hp ls2, you wont give up much mileage... if any

[-Ray-]

When my G8 is no longer a daily driver then I'll consider it.

[G8GT594]

scrap the dod and have some real fun. trust me, if we can get 27+ mpg out of an A6 650hp ls2, you wont give up much mileage... if any

I'm considering it. The car is not my daily driver but that may change. I would like to see more dyno results of a Non-DOD cam and a DOD cam.

[GRRRR8]

Patience. I am waiting to see what I will do about heads and then it will get done.

[Andy@Livernois]

I'm considering it. The car is not my daily driver but that may change. I would like to see more dyno results of a Non-DOD cam and a DOD cam.

I still firmly believe there will be long term issues if you do a bigger cam AND retain dod... not worth it IMHO

[G8GT594]

I still firmly believe there will be long term issues if you do a bigger cam AND retain dod... not worth it IMHO

What about long term with a smaller cam and DOD? Would it even be possible to still see 40+HP out of a smaller cam?

[Blackdevil77]

I have a request. Can someone (Charlie probably lol) list all the parts the parts including the LS3 cam that would have to be changed to keep everything good and sturdy for a long reliable car life? (ex. lifters, pushrods etc). Then a ballpark guess on the cost of all these parts + installation. Sorry if this is a ridiculous question lol.

[Crazy Paul]

I have a request. Can someone (Charlie probably lol) list all the parts the parts including the LS3 cam that would have to be changed to keep everything good and sturdy for a long reliable car life? (ex. lifters, pushrods etc). Then a ballpark guess on the cost of all these parts + installation. Sorry if this is a ridiculous question lol.

Well here's a good place to start.
It's all explained with pictures.
Price will vary depending on which parts you use.

http://www.forum.grrrr8.net/showthread.php?t=462

[GRRRR8]

I will you you a guesstimate on parts and labor. $2500-$3000 should do it right. I will have a list at a later date with all parts and #s used for my combo.

[Blackdevil77]

I will you you a guesstimate on parts and labor. $2500-$3000 should do it right. I will have a list at a later date with all parts and #s used for my combo.

K that's awsome and DAMN! Thats expensive! But it is a lot more powerful. As long as Long term reliability is the same as stock or even better would be nice :) Reliability is a VERY important thing for me. Next summer I hope to achieve this.

[Andy@Livernois]

What about long term with a smaller cam and DOD? Would it even be possible to still see 40+HP out of a smaller cam?

I was meaning bigger then what you already have... so the answer would be no... I would not recommend doing any cam while retaining DOD

[GeorgeInNePa]

No. Just dont over cam it.


Heresy!

Blasphemy!

[GRRRR8]

Lol!

[Mike P]

I'm liking this thread a lot. Now with all the discussion of the reliability of the engine if doing a DOD cam has me worried.

Now I'm leaning toward a LS3 Hot Cam because I would like very little to no lope at idle, and just scrap DOD, while making some decent horse & torque and still have pretty good gas mileage.

Charlie: I'll definitely be watching how your cam swap goes. $3000 bucks is kind of steep, but if that is my only cam I'll have to wait for 2009 to do it.

Subscribing........



...

[GRRRR8]

I will know the exact cost of all parts soon! I can guesstimate the labor or Livernois can give a quote also.

[Crazy Paul]

The clanky bits aren't too difficult to price up, nor are the hours to work on the engine.

How much is involved in turning the DOD off in the computer ?



{They should just have a nail that you can bash through the PCM with a hammer to kill it , I think.}

[Mike P]

I will know the exact cost of all parts soon! I can guesstimate the labor or Livernois can give a quote also.



Sounds good Charlie! I can't believe I'm talking about cams & I haven't even seen what my car will do in the 1/4 mile now since the LT Headers & Torque Converter!

I like the idea of a mild / stealthy cam while getting rid of DOD for piece of mind.



...

[Andy@Livernois]

Well here's a good place to start.
It's all explained with pictures.
Price will vary depending on which parts you use.

http://www.forum.grrrr8.net/showthread.php?t=462

I just noticed the cam you listed has the EXACT specs of our stage 1 L92 cam... :D


I will you you a guesstimate on parts and labor. $2500-$3000 should do it right. I will have a list at a later date with all parts and #s used for my combo.

I basically came up with 3300 for parts/labor/dyno that include plugs, coolant, oil, filter, and of course the other needed parts :D

[Crazy Paul]

I just noticed the cam you listed has the EXACT specs of our stage 1 L92 cam... :D

That's no co-incidence. It's the one I'll probably end up going with.
I bought a 220/220 .581/.588 (TS grind) on a 112 for my L76 but I might end up putting that into my LS2 instead.

Then getting your L92 stage 1 for my L76.

Would it make any difference in a manual trans car if the L92stg1 was on a 112 ? That probably affects the overlap in a negative manner ??

[Andy@Livernois]

we personally don't use 112 on most LS applications. It rarely makes more power, and almost always kills driveability... I would keep it on a 114 personally...

[svtcobra]

That is exactly what I am saying... GM ran that small of a cam for a reason with that system. If you are upgrading, do it once, do it right... Also, I personally would run a bigger cam then an LS3 hot cam... but thats me :D

something like maybe this:

http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/downloads/Images/camspecl92stg1.jpg

What would you think RWHP would be in a G8 GT,with long tube headers and a supercharger ( either Magnacharger or Procharger ). What is your opinion on how much HP a L76 can handle before you run the risk of breaking it? Also what would be the limits to the tranny and rearend?
My goal is to have a daily driver 500RWHP G8. Can this be accomplished or am I just wishful thinking. Thanks

[GRRRR8]

500 RWHP will be easy with that combo. No one knows if the diff can handle that much torque yet. I am going the N/A route and over 500 at the crank just to play it safe for now.

[Crazy Paul]

What is your opinion on how much HP a L76 can handle before you run the risk of breaking it?

Here's an L76 + turbo putting down 800rwhp.
I don't know how many times it could do that without a big bang tho.

12psi with a minor boost spike to 14 psi, the stock L76 + studded, cometic head gaskets and cam, minus AFM (DoD) gear, produced a whopping 603 rwkw (800rwhp) on pump fuel [BP 98 octane].

http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x182/VYSLED/?action=view&current=Turbo.flv

[svtcobra]

OK which would be a better choice of the three cams for supercharger.

1) 224/230 581/590 114 lsa
2) 228/240 598/590 114 lsa
3) 224/230 595/578 114 lsa

Which would keep drivibility the best and have decent exhaust note.
Not looking for cam that is to choppy but something that sounds a little better than stock. Thanks.

[Andy@Livernois]

On 6.0 apps it makes very good power with a blower (like 651 rwhp on a stock trans)... the second cam IMO has too much split and not enough lift for the duration... seems like a "lazy" cam. And cam 3 i dont like because the exhaust lift is lower then the intake. This is very bad to do on L92/L76 heads since the exhaust side flows % wise so much less then the intake.

[Andy@Livernois]

What would you think RWHP would be in a G8 GT,with long tube headers and a supercharger ( either Magnacharger or Procharger ). What is your opinion on how much HP a L76 can handle before you run the risk of breaking it? Also what would be the limits to the tranny and rearend?
My goal is to have a daily driver 500RWHP G8. Can this be accomplished or am I just wishful thinking. Thanks

BTW i think you could have a 500 rwhp G8 without tearing into the motor... Not that it wouldn't help, but i just think it's very obtainable w/ boost and exhaust...

[svtcobra]

BTW i think you could have a 500 rwhp G8 without tearing into the motor... Not that it wouldn't help, but i just think it's very obtainable w/ boost and exhaust...
Good to hear. But if someone wanted to get rid of DOD, for piece of mind as it was put, and have a supercharger, what would you recomend. The cam swap main purpose is to just get rid of DOD, not to add a whole lot of performance. (stock stlye cam )
I really do not like DOD, and really do not want to exceed to much over 500rwhp. I think 651rwhp will take its toll on the tranny and on engine and I would not perfer to be replacing and fixing parts after mods. I believe at 500RWHP I could expect to have a trouble free daily driver ride for a long time.Hope I am making sense

[Andy@Livernois]

you definitely are making sense. I think about 4-5 psi from a maggie combined with our stage 1 cam would do what you are looking for if not more :D

[svtcobra]

Thanks for your replys. I will definetly be contacting you about purhase of your stage 1 cam when the time comes.

[Blackdevil77]

Is this a good cam with all the necessary changes or am i off?

http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=218265

[GeorgeInNePa]

Is this a good cam with all the necessary changes or am i off?

http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=218265

Our cars already have those heads. You don't need to buy heads, you might want to have your heads ported.

[Blackdevil77]

Our cars already have those heads. You don't need to buy heads, you might want to have your heads ported.

I couldn't find a package without the heads. As far as the cam goes, is that the LS3 hot cam Charlie was talking about? And does that package come with all the supporting parts? I didn't see lifter's and pushrods in the description.

[Greg@PacePerformance]

I haven't put together a kit that to eliminate the DOD yet. I am waiting on Charlie to install everything and let me know if there is anything missing. Than Ike decided to delay those plans. So we are just waiting for everything to get finalized before I make it official.

I will make the kit available with a few options for cams :)

[Mike P]

I haven't put together a kit that to eliminate the DOD yet. I am waiting on Charlie to install everything and let me know if there is anything missing. Than Ike decided to delay those plans. So we are just waiting for everything to get finalized before I make it official.

I will make the kit available with a few options for cams :)


This is perfect! I can't wait to see the result in Charlie's cam swap. I'm pretty sure I'll be getting the same LS3 Hot Cam, with all the supporting mods.

Like Charlie has stated, I want a "stealth" cam. Something that is quiet at idle, with very little to no lope. But I'll take plenty of horsepower & torque!



...

[SFC]

So with all the cam talk... how friendly are these cams with giggle gas?

[Andy@Livernois]

we have quite a few people running our stage 1 cam w/ spray quite effectively. :D

[Blackdevil77]

I can't wait to see someone put out an LS3 Hot cam package including all supporting parts like lifters, pushrods etc. I don't want to loose long term reliability if I do this. What is the engine rated at now? Was it 200,000 miles? I'd like to keep that if not make it higher and at the same time, get more power :)

What else other than the engine parts is going to have to be up-graded to handle all that power?

[Mike P]

I can't wait to see someone put out an LS3 Hot cam package including all supporting parts like lifters, pushrods etc. I don't want to loose long term reliability if I do this. What is the engine rated at now? Was it 200,000 miles? I'd like to keep that if not make it higher and at the same time, get more power :)

What else other than the engine parts is going to have to be up-graded to handle all that power?


+1 and good question?


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