Livernois Motorsports et al (inludes Dyno Numbers and 275s)

[p71]

I just got back from Dearborn Heights with my car and here is my review of the Livernois experience, products and services, along with a couple sundry items that I modded at the same time.

I got to Michigan a day early (pushed through from Little Rock rather than stop in Kentucky)on monday. Dropped of my car in the rain and got to meet Andy and Rick because they had to cancel their business trip due to a close encounter with some local fauna. Rick walked me through the shop, which is very impressive from a technical point of view, and I got to see some of the cars you will have seen on you tube if you watch the Livernois channel (the white ZO6 replica and the modded Cobra being the most interesting). I also got to meet Dan who was very friendly and willing to discuss minutia even though he was clearly busy. And told me that they would not get to start on the car until the next day, which is what I had expected. That my wheels had not shown up and that they would watch my rented trailer for me.

They did a baseline dyno on Tuesday cam back at around 330WHP which is GXP territory and typical for a CAI, catback tuned car.

Mechanicals were done on Thursday and the first quick and dirty dyno run was 408 HP. I got my wheels in and had the tires mounted and decided to have Livernois build me some custom spacers.

Friday there was a big race and the shop was basically on minimum manning the guys who were there were not quite sure if my car was 100% done but were sure it needed one final pull o the dyno. After going out to lunch and watching a couple episodes of BSG in the conference room I was told that Dan had signed off on the current tune and that I was good to go on the road test.

Driving Impressons
The cam is very noticeable at idle, more so than I expected. The car was however as quiet as stock. The car also wants to creep forward under idle which i should have expected due to the high idle but I never put 2 and 2 together on that. The headers also make a slight tinging noise. Those are the bad things and the provisos.

The car is however very fast... it builds speed very quickly and uneventfully. It does not want to burn out and it does not get too loose going into second, less so in fact than it did with a just a tune on stock tires. It is especially fast over about 5000 rpm... if you are doing a roll on pull on the highway make sure to manually downshift to 3rd. Finally watch your speed. With stock mufflers 105 feels like 65 and there is no sound deference, and you get there in about as much time as the stock car would get to 65.


Wheels and Tires
I had a horrible shimmy for a while but reduced it by installing the custom spacers and rotating the tires. I found out later that two of the tires were also slightly out of balance. The wider tires have at least created the impression that there is less body roll, though am doubting the 2 inches of additional front track would affect roll. The Nitto invos are very quiet for a high performance tire. there is little road noise and they do not squeal when driving aggressively or when overpowered, which is hard to do even with my car.

Conclusion

I am going to give the engine mods and the guys at Livernois an A-... Andy and Rick will answer the most inane newbie question, and the mechanics and shop staff are very friendly. My only issues are those mentioned above, in essence that the cam was a little less mild than I thought (still has awesome drivability), and that the car does not feel as fast as it is (trust me it is VERY quick), neither of which are Livernois fault. So far the Nittos are besting my all time favorite the BFG KDW. I am reserving judgment on the VMR VB3 as there is one issue with them that I am going to give the manufacturer a chance to resolve before I post it up here. I am a nit picker about stuff I pay for so, if I am happy just about anyone is sure to be.

And what you were all looking for
Dyno sheet;

http://forum.grrrr8.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2201&stc=1&d=1245131235

ASExQljz8PQ

[p71]

Not sure why the video is not embedding but the link is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASExQljz8PQ

[DewieJr]

Congrats man! I can't wait to get cammed, as theres nothing like the sound of a fully bolted and cammed V8. I'd love to see a video from inside the car with the speedo.

[goldz28]

Sounds healthy, you can never really tell the sound of the vehicle inside a building on a dyno. I bet it sound great on a drive by. Congrats.

[jbradsh1]

Great experience going to the Livernois facility. Did you get the CNC valve job?

[fiveoh]

Great experience going to the Livernois facility. Did you get the CNC valve job?

It says CNC valve job on the video. Nice car man. You drove all the way from Austin to Michigan? How many days did that take? Do you think it gets better traction now due to the better tires?

[Livernois Motorsports]

Lincoln,

Thank you for the in-depth review and kind words regarding our shop and employees. It was very nice meeting you and your family!

I'm glad that you're happy with your car and the new found power! As far as the slight creeping forward, that's normal for a cammed auto with a stock converter. The tinging noise you hear through the headers is also normal, because the header material is thinner than the factory manifolds and you get some valvetrain noise.

As smooth as these cars are, I can see where it doesn't feel as fast as you would expect but I'd bet it will go low 12's/high 11's at the track.

The wheels looked excellent! Very good choice and I know Dan liked them a lot as well.

Please let us know if you have any questions or if there is anything we can assist you with.

Thank you for your business!

Regards,

Rick LeBlanc
Livernois Motorsports



I just got back from Dearborn Heights with my car and here is my review of the Livernois experience, products and services, along with a couple sundry items that I modded at the same time.

I got to Michigan a day early (pushed through from Little Rock rather than stop in Kentucky)on monday. Dropped of my car in the rain and got to meet Andy and Rick because they had to cancel their business trip due to a close encounter with some local fauna. Rick walked me through the shop, which is very impressive from a technical point of view, and I got to see some of the cars you will have seen on you tube if you watch the Livernois channel (the white ZO6 replica and the modded Cobra being the most interesting). I also got to meet Dan who was very friendly and willing to discuss minutia even though he was clearly busy. And told me that they would not get to start on the car until the next day, which is what I had expected. That my wheels had not shown up and that they would watch my rented trailer for me.

They did a baseline dyno on Tuesday cam back at around 330WHP which is GXP territory and typical for a CAI, catback tuned car.

Mechanicals were done on Thursday and the first quick and dirty dyno run was 408 HP. I got my wheels in and had the tires mounted and decided to have Livernois build me some custom spacers.

Friday there was a big race and the shop was basically on minimum manning the guys who were there were not quite sure if my car was 100% done but were sure it needed one final pull o the dyno. After going out to lunch and watching a couple episodes of BSG in the conference room I was told that Dan had signed off on the current tune and that I was good to go on the road test.

Driving Impressons
The cam is very noticeable at idle, more so than I expected. The car was however as quiet as stock. The car also wants to creep forward under idle which i should have expected due to the high idle but I never put 2 and 2 together on that. The headers also make a slight tinging noise. Those are the bad things and the provisos.

The car is however very fast... it builds speed very quickly and uneventfully. It does not want to burn out and it does not get too loose going into second, less so in fact than it did with a just a tune on stock tires. It is especially fast over about 5000 rpm... if you are doing a roll on pull on the highway make sure to manually downshift to 3rd. Finally watch your speed. With stock mufflers 105 feels like 65 and there is no sound deference, and you get there in about as much time as the stock car would get to 65.


Wheels and Tires
I had a horrible shimmy for a while but reduced it by installing the custom spacers and rotating the tires. I found out later that two of the tires were also slightly out of balance. The wider tires have at least created the impression that there is less body roll, though am doubting the 2 inches of additional front track would affect roll. The Nitto invos are very quiet for a high performance tire. there is little road noise and they do not squeal when driving aggressively or when overpowered, which is hard to do even with my car.

Conclusion

I am going to give the engine mods and the guys at Livernois an A-... Andy and Rick will answer the most inane newbie question, and the mechanics and shop staff are very friendly. My only issues are those mentioned above, in essence that the cam was a little less mild than I thought (still has awesome drivability), and that the car does not feel as fast as it is (trust me it is VERY quick), neither of which are Livernois fault. So far the Nittos are besting my all time favorite the BFG KDW. I am reserving judgment on the VMR VB3 as there is one issue with them that I am going to give the manufacturer a chance to resolve before I post it up here. I am a nit picker about stuff I pay for so, if I am happy just about anyone is sure to be.

And what you were all looking for
Dyno sheet;

http://forum.grrrr8.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2201&stc=1&d=1245131235

ASExQljz8PQ

[fiveoh]

Also what do you mean by the cam is more noticeable at idle? The car shakes more then you expected or what?

[jimmytt6]

Very nice!!
I hope to get a cam next spring..
I love my Nitto Invo's also..way better the BFG a lot more quieter.

[p71]

Congrats man! I can't wait to get cammed, as theres nothing like the sound of a fully bolted and cammed V8. I'd love to see a video from inside the car with the speedo.

Thanks... I would but I have no camera.


It says CNC valve job on the video. Nice car man. You drove all the way from Austin to Michigan? How many days did that take? Do you think it gets better traction now due to the better tires? Also what do you mean by the cam is more noticeable at idle? The car shakes more then you expected or what?

Thanks,

I actually drove from Fort Worth. It took two days both ways... mainly because I was towing following the speed limits to the letter and had a 3 month old with me who demanded regular stops. I have done the trip from Abilene to Cadillac, which is about 2 hours further than detroit in 21 hours before.

The car has way more traction with the 275 with my stock parts in the back it would not do a burnout even after all the mods. It will now if you try, but if yo have it lined up straight on a smooth dry road and punch it fro a stop there is no drama at all the car goes, scratches going into second and goes some more.

I am thinking I should roll the rear fenders because it looks like with a bunch of weight in the back the car is scrubbing very slightly.

In the front I have way less understeer at the same speeds... at higher speeds the car behaves like it did with a little push, it just comes in about 15 mph higher.

I am also thinking something is binding in my suspension up front because I get the occasional clunk.

As to the idle. The car shakes more than stock when cold, but settles down to almost stock when warmer. The main difference is in the sound. You can definitely not get away with claiming your car is stock.



Lincoln,

Thank you for the in-depth review and kind words regarding our shop and employees. It was very nice meeting you and your family!

I'm glad that you're happy with your car and the new found power! As far as the slight creeping forward, that's normal for a cammed auto with a stock converter. The tinging noise you hear through the headers is also normal, because the header material is thinner than the factory manifolds and you get some valvetrain noise.

As smooth as these cars are, I can see where it doesn't feel as fast as you would expect but I'd bet it will go low 12's/high 11's at the track.

The wheels looked excellent! Very good choice and I know Dan liked them a lot as well.

Please let us know if you have any questions or if there is anything we can assist you with.

Thank you for your business!

Regards,

Rick LeBlanc
Livernois Motorsports

No problem Rick, it was a good experience. I made most of the comments for those who have never owned a seriously modded car. I was expecting the header noise, so that was not a surprise. I should not that on this setup most of the noise under throttle is the OTR CAI... you do not really hear the valvetrain, headers or mufflers.

Paul mentioned that I might want to do a converter if I wanted to get rid of the creeping when I met him at the shop. I figure a relatively mild raise might do the trick, though it might bring a little more drama to the launches... jury is still out and my Matercard is tired, so we shall see.

[MANOFSTEEL69]

Dan has mine idled down to like 750-800 rpms and Tigger will still lunge every once in a great while. Nature of the beast :)
BlackBerry8703e/4.1.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/104

[BigV8]

Congrats on your mods. I was about to head there until i traded for the GXP.

[Darkside]

Paul mentioned that I might want to do a converter if I wanted to get rid of the creeping when I met him at the shop. I figure a relatively mild raise might do the trick, though it might bring a little more drama to the launches... jury is still out and my Matercard is tired, so we shall see.

Sounds great, nice writeup. Don't spend the money for a stall if you are expecting it to get rid of the lunge. Mine is still noticable.

[G8GT594]

Sounds great, nice writeup. Don't spend the money for a stall if you are expecting it to get rid of the lunge. Mine is still noticable.

Shouldn't be... Ive talked to several people about this and the stall got rid of the lurching...

[Mike P]

Sounds great, nice writeup. Don't spend the money for a stall if you are expecting it to get rid of the lunge. Mine is still noticable.


Call or email Kirk, because he can get rid of that lurch. I'm making an appointment soon for the lurch & hot restart issue.

When I'm down there I might as well do the TB, Intake, & UD pulley too. :)


...

[Mike P]

Congrats on your mods. I was about to head there until i traded for the GXP.


It's alway fun to play "What If". I alway wonder if I had a GXP, and still did all the mods that I've done to the GT, how fast would it be?

I wonder if anyone with a GXP is going to be that mod crazy or ballsy?

:)


...

[R.Penguin]

It's alway fun to play "What If". I alway wonder if I had a GXP, and still did all the mods that I've done to the GT, how fast would it be?

I wonder if anyone with a GXP is going to be that mod crazy or ballsy?

:)


...
"I wonder if anyone with a GXP is going to be that mod crazy or ballsy?" :rofl:


My money would be on YES!

[p71]

It is not so much that the car is lunging... it DOES surge a little as it is coming to a stop but nothing bad, what I am more concerned about is that because the idle is high it gives the impression that your gas peddle is pressed slightly, and that makes braking, but more importantly sitting still require more attention... basically in a stock car you can just rest your foot on the brake pedal, this one you must retain pressure. Again this is a niggle on a very modded car. I figure a slightly looser torque converter will fix it as you have to push the gas a little harder on one to get the car to start rolling... in essence the higher idle will be that extra bit of gas so if anything it will drive more like stock, so long as I go with a fairly tight, but looser than stock converter.

[p71]

It's alway fun to play "What If". I alway wonder if I had a GXP, and still did all the mods that I've done to the GT, how fast would it be?

I wonder if anyone with a GXP is going to be that mod crazy or ballsy?

:)


...

I would agree with penguinator...

Of course the mods will not pick up as much on a GXP because it is in a higher state of tune from the factory.

[Mike P]

Glad to see I could make you laugh Penguin :)

I can't wait to see it. I know the LS3 / L99 is only .2 liters bigger than the L76, and is almost the same. But I just would like to see how much further it will get with the same type of mods as the GT.

Like cam, headers, cai, torque converter, maybe heads, tires and stuff...



...

[edmanet]

Dan has mine idled down to like 750-800 rpms and Tigger will still lunge every once in a great while. Nature of the beast :)
BlackBerry8703e/4.1.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/104


Same here.....but also I have the hot start issue and the converter lockup/unlock issue between 55 and 70mph.

[norm8332]

It is not so much that the car is lunging... it DOES surge a little as it is coming to a stop but nothing bad, what I am more concerned about is that because the idle is high it gives the impression that your gas peddle is pressed slightly, and that makes braking, but more importantly sitting still require more attention... basically in a stock car you can just rest your foot on the brake pedal, this one you must retain pressure. Again this is a niggle on a very modded car. I figure a slightly looser torque converter will fix it as you have to push the gas a little harder on one to get the car to start rolling... in essence the higher idle will be that extra bit of gas so if anything it will drive more like stock, so long as I go with a fairly tight, but looser than stock converter.

Mine was set at 800 too because the larger injectors cause it to miss a bit at idle (something to do with min injector pulse ms), But I couldn't stand the firm brake at stops so I lowered it back down to stock. The shuttering is just a bit worse than stock, and no chance of stall.

I imagine with the cam it could stall?

[bigwillys58]

congrats on the numbers man! it was good to meet you last week too

[p71]

Looks like you were right about me getting a couple extra horse over you... my car does not launch quite as hard. Your turn to come visit me.

[Jaysin]

Would love to see some pics of the car with the new wheels.

[jimmytt6]

Same here.....but also I have the hot start issue and the converter lockup/unlock issue between 55 and 70mph.

Not to change subject but what do you "hot start issue"
Is this something common with cammed G8's and stock convertors?

thanks,
Jim

[edmanet]

Not to change subject but what do you "hot start issue"
Is this something common with cammed G8's and stock convertors?

thanks,
Jim

Hot start is common now only because it was something that was not foreseen on the the first dozen or so cars that were cammed. I'm told its an easy fix. A setting needs to be changed. It shouldn't be a problem from here on out. These things are expected if you're the first to try something.

My other problem is with a higher stall converter. I don't know of anyone that has
a problem with the stock stall.

[jimmytt6]

Hot start is common now only because it was something that was not foreseen on the the first dozen or so cars that were cammed. I'm told its an easy fix. A setting needs to be changed. It shouldn't be a problem from here on out. These things are expected if you're the first to try something.

My other problem is with a higher stall converter. I don't know of anyone that has
a problem with the stock stall.

thanks for the explantion..
one of these love to see you G8..I live just south of Annapolis Md, not
sure how far away you there..

Jim

[edmanet]

thanks for the explantion..
one of these love to see you G8..I live just south of Annapolis Md, not
sure how far away you there..

Jim


I live near white marsh.

[Mike P]

Inner Harbor FTW! :)


...

[99-LS1-SS]

I made an overlay of my dyno sheet and yours and based on what I can tell, your car pulls harder from 5K rpms and up. Our torque curves and horsepower curves are pretty dang similar until 5K. Yours keeps going up and mine starts to flatten out. I tried to make an animated image to show the difference.

http://www.usamls.net/brandon/uploads/merged_dynos.gif

[edmanet]

Inner Harbor FTW! :)


...


The inner harbor is about 20 min from my house. I rarely go there. In the last year or so there's been a lot of gang activity in that area. They're even in the public parking lots. There are cops stationed outside of them now to keep the gangs away.

[p71]

I made an overlay of my dyno sheet and yours and based on what I can tell, your car pulls harder from 5K rpms and up. Our torque curves and horsepower curves are pretty dang similar until 5K. Yours keeps going up and mine starts to flatten out. I tried to make an animated image to show the difference.

http://www.usamls.net/brandon/uploads/merged_dynos.gif

Very cool, I would have changed your graph to grayscale for more contrast though...

yeah it pulls like a beast on top.

[Mike P]

The inner harbor is about 20 min from my house. I rarely go there. In the last year or so there's been a lot of gang activity in that area. They're even in the public parking lots. There are cops stationed outside of them now to keep the gangs away.


That sucks about gang activity.....



...

[G8GT594]

Hot start is common now only because it was something that was not foreseen on the the first dozen or so cars that were cammed. I'm told its an easy fix. A setting needs to be changed. It shouldn't be a problem from here on out. These things are expected if you're the first to try something.

My other problem is with a higher stall converter. I don't know of anyone that has
a problem with the stock stall.

So is this when you start it sounds like its going to stall... or itll start for a second then stall...

[Mike P]

So is this when you start it sounds like its going to stall... or itll start for a second then stall...


Yep, some of the cammed cars are doing it. It doesn't happen on cold starts, but on hot starts it sometimes happens.

I've noticed if you don't have your AC on, the car starts up better on hot restarts.


...

[edmanet]

So is this when you start it sounds like its going to stall... or itll start for a second then stall...

If the car is hot and you turn it off......then try to start it within a few minutes is when this issue happens most of the time. But once in awhile even after 30 min or so it will do it.

It does both but 80% of the time it sounds like its going to stall and you have to turn the key off wait a few seconds and then turn it back on. It'll also start for a second then stall.

[jimmytt6]

I live near white marsh.

O.k.
Nice used to live in Towson while going to school there many years ago...:drunk2:
Us Maryland G8's should have some type of get together this summer or
fall..

[G8GT594]

If the car is hot and you turn it off......then try to start it within a few minutes is when this issue happens most of the time. But once in awhile even after 30 min or so it will do it.

It does both but 80% of the time it sounds like its going to stall and you have to turn the key off wait a few seconds and then turn it back on. It'll also start for a second then stall.

Had the start for a second and stall happen today. Does the start but sounds like its going to stall often. I don't mind it. I give it a little throttle when that happens. So anyone know what needs to be done to the tune to fix it?

[p71]

I notice that my car revs way higher for a few seconds when it started than stock... would imagine adding a little fuel on startup is what is needed.

[Mike P]

O.k.
Nice used to live in Towson while going to school there many years ago...:drunk2:
Us Maryland G8's should have some type of get together this summer or
fall..



Sorry for the bold......


With all of the G8 members that are in Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. We should have a meet this Fall at either ATCO, NJ or one of the 3 tracks in Maryland (MIR, Cecil, or Capital)?




...

[Darkside]

I'd head out there if there is enough notice to get off work.

[edmanet]

Had the start for a second and stall happen today. Does the start but sounds like its going to stall often. I don't mind it. I give it a little throttle when that happens. So anyone know what needs to be done to the tune to fix it?

Just a change in one of the tuning tables from what I hear. LIVERNOIS is going to send me the cables. Hopefully this gets done next week.

[edmanet]

Sorry for the bold......


With all of the G8 members that are in Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. We should have a meet this Fall at either ATCO, NJ or one of the 3 tracks in Maryland (MIR, Cecil, or Capital)?

...

Let me check on a few things. Getting the track for a day is going to be hard.

[Tempest2000]

I just had mine done and I'm sure it helps I was tuned in warm weather, but no hot start issues here... its been 90+ and high humidity every day.

On a side note my dads 95 F-150 does this every day and he has no cam LMAO

[Andy@Livernois]

I just had mine done and I'm sure it helps I was tuned in warm weather, but no hot start issues here... its been 90+ and high humidity every day.

On a side note my dads 95 F-150 does this every day and he has no cam LMAO

ah, the rare solenoid operated valvetrain option ;) just kidding, i had to before someone else did ;)

[p71]

Nice...

Was going to mention that it was desmodromic... but even those have cams.

[Tempest2000]

I think we knew what I was referencing... but all the same good call :)