Another OEM Strut Collapse Question

[SRG963]

Sorry for posting yet another strut thread.

Lately, when I hit 80+, it feels as though I'm out of align and the front wheels are fighting each other. I have no other signs of my car being out of alignment, so that leads me to the collapsed strut problem that everyone seems to have sooner or later. Sorry about the dirty engine bay, it's raining on/off this week.

Do I has collapsed strut(s)?:shiner:
or do I just need new front tires, lol

Wheel turned ATW right:

Passenger side
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/srg963/G8%20Struts/P5050395.jpg
Drivers side
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/srg963/G8%20Struts/P5050393.jpg

Wheel turned ATW left:

Passenger side
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/srg963/G8%20Struts/P5050397.jpg
Drivers side
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/srg963/G8%20Struts/P5050396.jpg

[Chewy]

Yep... There should be a bit of gap but NOT that much.

Buy the Pedders Bushings and bearings and have them installed.

I NEVER felt like I was fighting the car to go down the highway and I drive the interstate 90% of the time in mine. What I did have was a lot of loose sounding noise in front over sharp bumps.

Chris

[BMR Sales]

Yeah it looks like they're toast, I had a friend with a VW that had the same problem with that style of upper strut/shock mount.

[SRG963]

Yep... There should be a bit of gap but NOT that much.

Buy the Pedders Bushings and bearings and have them installed.

I NEVER felt like I was fighting the car to go down the highway and I drive the interstate 90% of the time in mine. What I did have was a lot of loose sounding noise in front over sharp bumps.

Chris

I don't have any noise issues, just seems like the car has gotten sloppy at highway speeds vs new.

I plan on doing a Track II when it's time. My plan was to get a GXP, but I may end up keeping the stealth. I've got another year to decide and was hoping the stock suspension would get my by.

I guess I could just drive the speed limit :nud: naaaw, that's no fun :)

[Chewy]

It's a crappy strut mount design and I think it leads to a lot of the noise.

I am UBER anal about noises so what I hear I am sure is normal and on all of them.

Chris

[beach]

Oh yes, they're shot...the bushings/bearings, that is. That's exactly what mine are like at 3k miles, or that actually have been since bought new. I still have no driveability issues, or noises other than the squeaky-creaky when it gets freezing or below.

Basically, if your bushings were intact and the struts holding properly, that mount would stay level and against the fender base essentially all the time. As now, uh, no.

The struts themselves are okay, or should be, but the big bushing at the top that helps locate them and keep them in the right place is squashed and shot.

[Chewy]

I need to grab mine and take a photo of them...

[Steve]

hmm that's what mine look like AFTER my xa install (maybe not as large a gap, but definitely noticable) - you saying it's f'ed up?

[beach]

hmm that's what mine look like AFTER my xa install (maybe not as large a gap, but definitely noticable) - you saying it's f'ed up?

Those are different, I believe, but standard design struts should NOT look like the above if the bushings are intact and not shot.

[Ktlplxm]

I thought that about mine originally, but checked them against a new one at the dealership w 13 miles on it and they both look like SRG's

[johnbell2]

Pretty simple test if you have the room to pull it off. I have a cul de sac lot so I can do this at will.

Start out cold and back up into the open area. Turn the wheel full right until lock then put car in drive. Turn right in circle with wheel at full lock, this will be your first "clunk". As you close out the circle turn wheel full left and keep driving. This will be your second "clunk". Pull out of the area and drive normally. You are now "warmed up" and you won't hear those clunks again until it sits for a couple hours and you do the same exercise again.

The only way that you can reproduce this for a dealer that I can fathom is to instruct them to let it sit in the wait lot for a while, then have two techs go out, start the car and pop the hood. Have one tech watch the top of the mount while the other turns the wheel to full lock left and right. If it's not obvious to them at that point then find another dealer that doesn't have stone cold idiots for techs.

We'll see how my dealer handles this little test tomorrow.

[beach]

I thought that about mine originally, but checked them against a new one at the dealership w 13 miles on it and they both look like SRG's

Again, that's because all of these cars from the time they get here have, essentially, crushed strut bushings (it's been discussed elsewhere, a side effect of the bushing, the design, and the cars being strapped down tightly on the ride over), so they're all "shot" from day one, some exhibiting physical signs of noise or thunks/clunks, and some not showing much of anything.

Brand new ones on the lot are no different in this regard than one that's been driven for a while. Hence why Pedders and other suspension installers report have yet ever having a single one come in, even with barely any miles or use, that aren't squashed.

[SRG963]

I'm stopping by to talk to my service dude tomorrow and show him the strut bush problem, and set up an appointment. I'll keep everyone updated.

I'm also going to hit them up on the thin paint (entire car), wonder how that's going to turn out :shf:

[zabolots]

Is there a TSB for this or do you generally have to fight dealers to get them replaced?

[Chewy]

No TSB that I am aware of. DO NOT replace with stock bushings though. They will fail again!

[SRG963]

No TSB that I am aware of. DO NOT replace with stock bushings though. They will fail again!

That may be the only option I have, unless I just don't have them replace them and leave as is. They might replace w/pedders, but I'll have to talk them into it.

I've spoke with a writer which set me up an appointment to talk to the service manager on Monday. He is the one who will approve or deny my paint claim.

They told me they didn't have loaner cars, which is damn funny since that's what they said they would put me in last time. What do they expect, me to F'n walk? Dumbasses.

[camoeto]

That may be the only option I have, unless I just don't have them replace them and leave as is. They might replace w/pedders, but I'll have to talk them into it.

I've spoke with a writer which set me up an appointment to talk to the service manager on Monday. He is the one who will approve or deny my paint claim.

They told me they didn't have loaner cars, which is damn funny since that's what they said they would put me in last time. What do they expect, me to F'n walk? Dumbasses.

GM MUST provide you with courtesy transportation. That is under the terms of their warranty. That means either a ride if they don't keep it overnight, or loaner/rental if they do.

http://www.pontiac.com/warranty/

[Panzer Leader]

Yep... There should be a bit of gap but NOT that much.

Buy the Pedders Bushings and bearings and have them installed.

I NEVER felt like I was fighting the car to go down the highway and I drive the interstate 90% of the time in mine. What I did have was a lot of loose sounding noise in front over sharp bumps.

Chris
Would it be cheaper just to go with a full Pedder's Street II change out? Second question, when is everyone seeing this happen? How many miles on the car? Looking closely at the Pedders Street II change out or is it cheaper just to replace the the affected bushing and the bearing and stay with OEM springs, and dampers?? Then change out the sway bars, and strut tower brace.

Totally correct about the vehicles being chained down on shipment. This is true on the ship, train and truck. Have noticed same symptoms on mine at 80mph. My current odometer is at 2,500 miles. What is the recourse? Will it take a Technical Bulletin?

Hate to add another post but a couple of other thoughts on the subject. If there ia a problem with ALL the bushings and bearings, will they be corrected with OEM replacements? According to 4GASEM they too will fail. If Pedders has some that correct problem, would GM pay for labor and up to the cost of new OEMs for the Pedders parts?

[Chewy]

Hey Panzer, I doubt that GM will use non GM parts to fix your car but it's worth a try I guess. It IS cheaper to just buy the bushings and bearings but MAN do these springs and struts make a difference or WHAT? I can't believe the difference. I just need bars and I am done. Your cheapest bet is the touring package IMO. It gives you all the struts, bushings, bearings and rear subframe bushes for 1000.00 dollars plus about 5 hours labor to install.

I added the EP6560 control arm bushings and caster washers for another 200 bucks and am in love.

Chris

[beach]

Rocksand Racing in PA will be doing my Pedders install soon, and from the first phone call chatting about these cars, the owner (an ex dealer service manager) said they've had numerous dealers from the area who know them bringing over G8's with "issues" to have Pedders strut bushings/bearings installed and just paying for it out of their own pocket to make the owner/customer satisfied.

So, it happens. Rare, but it can happen. Hard to suggest, however, as most won't even still believe or listen to such a thing being an issue..."we've seen nothing, there's no TSB, etc."

[Panzer Leader]

Beach, mine goes in on Monday to the dealer. Hopefully something will get resolved. If not will be forced to go with either the Pedders Touring or StreetII plus upgraded sway bars. If anyone from GM reads this post, hey shit happens but don't screw the very people trying to help save GM, you know, your customers.

[Snakey]

I seem to have developed a rattle coming from the frontend when going over good sized holes in the road. Think this is related?

[Panzer Leader]

UPDATE: Just got a call from my Dealer. They had to order parts for front suspension. Also checking the TSB on the rear noise. Almost sounds like a metal "twanging" when metal is under stress. Could be the exhaust system. Other noise detected was in the sunroof area when backing out of drive way onto street. A "creaking" sound. Since car is close to 3 thousand miles, having oil change done as well. The dealer is pushing Mobil 1 synthetic.

[Panzer Leader]

I seem to have developed a rattle coming from the frontend when going over good sized holes in the road. Think this is related?

Could very well be the same problem. Appearently the front strut bushing/bearing problem starts around 2500 miles.

[Snakey]

We'll find out tomorrow. Dropping it off at the dealer for a check up. I've got 7500 miles on mine so I'l well past the 2500.

[SRG963]

Just dropped her off with a list of about 8 things, including front bushings, clunk when cold going into drive, thin paint, wiper blades, check parking break for wear....

put me in a colorado truck, fun fun

[Panzer Leader]

I have to say, that other than the problem with the front struts, overall few problems. My best guess is that most of the suspension problems appear to be bushing related. And some of those could be related to stowage related problems on the ship. Hopefully, the situation will be resolved. The car alignment was almost perfect going in, as was the alignment of the steering wheel. I expressed my concerns as was told there would be no problem with either. I cannot stand an off centered steering wheel on a new car, pretty much indicates something else.

[beach]

I have to say, that other than the problem with the front struts, overall few problems. My best guess is that most of the suspension problems appear to be bushing related. And some of those could be related to stowage related problems on the ship.

Pretty much, YES;)

Bushings in general are soft, and in regards to the struts are naturally a little too weak and then are damaged/ruined thanks to the tightly strapped down shipment process--as seen on all the G8's we get. From there, some then show or sound issues, some don't, some do it immediately, some take a while. It all depends, strangely, thanks to the smallest of variations.

[Chewy]

My front end sounded very loose until I had the Pedders stuff installed.

I wouldn't bother replacing the top bushings unless they were Pedders units. Just MO.

[SRG963]

Just got off the phone, they said they couldn't find anything wrong with the struts.

[DQGTO]

Wow

[Panzer Leader]

Well parts on still on order. Expext them in today. Back in shop tomorrow. Service said about 3 hours to do job.

[Snakey]

Well I just got back from having the dealer check mine out... They couldn't detect the noise themselves so I took the Service Manager for a ride and made it happen several times. He then asked if he could drive it to replicate the noise and procedded to drive off the side of the road to try to get into the bumps and what not. I bit my tongue until this knob drove into a gravel parking lot and then proceeded to hit the biggest hole in the lot and rip up my front bumper. At this point I told him we're done driving and to go back to the dealership so he can figure out what he's going to do to get my bumper fixed! Not to sure I want them to work on my car to fix the noise issue now. To say I'm pissed would be putting it lightly. He never even apologized for it just said, "well shit, i guess i gotta get your bumper fixed now too." I immediately went to my salesman and told him of the incident and that I fully expected this to be fixed my way.

[beach]

Terrible, guys, terrible. Hence why--and I shouldn't have to, but regardless--after 2 problematic cars back to back and unresolved issues before the G8, "little" things like the strut mounts, etc. I'm not even bothering with my dealer anymore. I mentioned my cold noise the only time I've ever taken it in to have a new wheel mounted, of course they didn't even believe me, and that was enough of that.

I would think the most obvious way--aside from noises--would be to pop the hood and have them watch as you turn the wheel and the strut tops pop up, tilt, turn, etc. all over the place, but even then you'd likely still get an "that's normal".

Keep trying something though, even calling GM directly (often, especially now, it can help and get things done...no guarantee, but not truly worthless) and filing something. With real mileage, you'll start having more and more problems with the aged and worn strut bushings that were toast from the first day off the boat, let alone after thousands of miles of more wear.

[johnbell2]

Results of my dealer trip == useless. "Can't reproduce the issue / no issue found" blah blah.

Dealership doesn't want the service business, dealership doesn't get the service business. And they wonder why I laughed in their face when asked why I didn't want the extended warranty. Yeah, I want to pay extra for the privilege of telling me nothing is wrong. How about I save that money for real parts and real techs that know their way around a car.

It's official for me now... stock sucks.

[Panzer Leader]

Well they are going to install new parts. I will do that. If stock bushings and bearings fail again, will procede with building case under State of LA Lemon Law. OR do the Pedders and say the hell with it. They told me they changed the oil but failed to reset the oil life %. Makes me fear the worse. BTW how do you reset the oil life? Cannot do it from the Engineer Mode I don't think. Also, after replacing the strut parts, they are going to check the rotors for warpage (Hopefull not warp speed) then its on to the rattles and creaks. Then alignment or somewhere in that order.

Oh anyone know about the fine scratches in the roof paint? Is that OEM?

Now Snakey, after this Service Manager play Smokey and the Bandit with your car, did you have thoughts of physical violence on this ass? If so, not to worry, its normal. I would expect no less than a brand new, painted at the freaking factory bumper. Repainting a bumper is not the way to go unless you pick the paint shop who really knows how to do it. BTW were therre any nice gouges or deep scratches?

[SRG963]

BTW how do you reset the oil life? Cannot do it from the Engineer Mode I don't think.

Turn your key to the on position, but don't start the car. Pump the gas peddle to the floor 3 times within 5 seconds.

[SRG963]

Oh, my service manager is checking on the strut bushes. I told him that we could pop the hood and watch the strut's move around. He said that might be normal and that he would check into it today.

Nice guy, I just need to prove somethings wrong before they fix. I told him that the GTO's had this same problem, and to get back to me with info.

[Panzer Leader]

Turn your key to the on position, but don't start the car. Pump the gas peddle to the floor 3 times within 5 seconds.

Are you serious about this? Sounds like something out of the Wizard of Oz, you know, click the heels of your ruby red shoes three times. (Which I don't own BTW)

[Panzer Leader]

Well parts came in. BUT now have to wait until next week for service to install them. WTF right. Anyway the parts department said the bearings for the struts came in. I asked about the bushings. He claims that they are one piece. (Bushings and Bearings) Is this correct? I thought it was 2 diffrent parts.

[Chewy]

I answered your ?? in your thread Panzer.

As for the stealerships... I didn't even bother... I went right to Pedders and the problem is solved!

Chris

[SRG963]

Are you serious about this? Sounds like something out of the Wizard of Oz, you know, click the heels of your ruby red shoes three times. (Which I don't own BTW)


There's no place like home,There's no place like home,There's no place like home....ROFL

Yup, pumping peddle 3 times within 5 seconds is the trick.

[jbradsh1]

Are you serious about this? Sounds like something out of the Wizard of Oz, you know, click the heels of your ruby red shoes three times. (Which I don't own BTW)

The wizard of OZ procedure is in the owner's manual. Go look, just to confirm that you do indeed need to be Dorothy and put on the red shoes. :)

[Panzer Leader]

Come on folks, you are going to make me wish I had gotten the Bimmer or at worse the G-37. Well Toto, doesn't look like Kansas does it? Yea my service writer is off today. So I called, parts are in, told them I was suppose to bring the car back today. "Oh No, you can't go there, we are al booked up till next week." WTF Guess I'll go by for a surprise visit tomorrow AM.

[z51l9889]

Oh yes, they're shot...the bushings/bearings, that is. That's exactly what mine are like at 3k miles, or that actually have been since bought new. I still have no driveability issues, or noises other than the squeaky-creaky when it gets freezing or below.

Basically, if your bushings were intact and the struts holding properly, that mount would stay level and against the fender base essentially all the time. As now, uh, no.

The struts themselves are okay, or should be, but the big bushing at the top that helps locate them and keep them in the right place is squashed and shot.

First, let me first start of by agreeing with most of you that the upper mount design SUCKS. I have been designing strut module assemblies (strut, spring, mount and various other components) for over 20 years, and I HATE this design. Every time a customer inquires about this style of mount I do my absolute best to talk them out of it. 4GASEM was correct in saying that the noises are due to the nature of the design. In fact, knowing as much as I do about this design, I actually considered not buying the car because of it because I knew it would always be noisy.

However, the above quoted statement is totally incorrect. This mount system is a somewhat unique design in the auto industry, and it works differently than what most people realize. The strut mount assembly in most vehicles is secured to the car body by bolting the mount to the strut tower. In a few vehicles (Opels, some VW's, the G8/Camaro), the strut assembly is held in place by the weight of the vehicle -- in other words, the upper attachment for the front suspension is not actually secured to the car body. The large washer above the strut tower is a retainer that bolts directly to the strut rod and limits the rebound (extension) travel of the suspension to insure that the mount rubber always has spring force pressing it into the strut tower. The rubber compresses over time compared to a brand new part because that is what it needs to do to a certain extent to make this style of mount work. Grossly oversimplified, the mount makes noise because the force pressing it against the car body is always changing as you drive the car. Think of tapping on a piece of metal with a rubber mallet as a simple analogy.

Please note also that the vertical and rotational movement of the retaining washer relative to the strut tower is NORMAL FOR THIS DESIGN. Because the washer is attached directly to the strut rod, it will orbit and move up/down with steering motion because the strut itself swings in an arc as the wheels are turned.

In spite of all its shortcomings, the mount/bearing design in our cars has proven over time to be pretty durable in most every car design that has used it (pretty much every large Opel based vehicle for the last 20 to 25 years, including Holden). Unfortunately for most of us, that just means we will have more of an opportunity to hate it. :poof:


The Pedders mounts will help the handling because they are harder and stiffer, but they can only minimize some of the noises at best plus the ride will be noticeably stiffer. Think of the Pedders mounts as a reasonably effective Band-aid for a terrible basic design.

I apologize if my comments offend anyone. That is not my intention. I am merely trying to provide what I feel is useful information.

[Chewy]

They don't offend me... I was guessing the same thing you explained. It's held in by the weight of the car. What a POS design IMO.

To bad... It is noisy but since I know what it is now it's not a big deal anymore.

Chris

[beach]

Nope, that's GREAT clarification...all good stuff.

I may have jumped the gun a bit with what I said, but then again was just going off what the Pedders guys who will be working on mine had said and other reports here. Still, the "pre-squashed" bushings on a lot are leading to other issues like the clunks, squeaking/scraping, alignment problems, etc. Point is, squashed and/or damaged in other ways, things from day one on a G8 front suspension aren't 100% as even they come out of the plant.

I have wondered about how these same bits are fairing in the home of Oz where they don't undergo the same rigors of shipping, etc., but also are subjected to sometimes harsh driving conditions...well, while also having slightly different oodles and such, ever so slightly.