Stripped Screws for Intake Cover...what to do?

[majesticix]

So I decided to have at taking off the intake cover. Got the 4 bolts in the back holding the brackets off no problem...but my 10mm socket wouldn't fit over the fuel rail nuts (I need a longer socket since the bolt sticks out). Decided to put everything back together so I can go to the store. I had bought a inch pound torque wrench to do this...so when I was tightening, I set to 44 lbs. Unfortunately, I was anticipating an actually audible *click* like my larger torque wrench...nope.

I thought I heard the click finally, but it was the bolt snapping. Both of them (the first one I just assumed was the click, wierd as it felt haha, but didn't realize it was stripped until I stripped the second one)

In any case, attached are pics of what I'm talking about. Part of the bolt is still stuck in both ends. Any tips for getting these suckers out? How vital is this piece and bolting it up? I've got the other end secure, but I didn't want to leave this piece in there loose since it would likely fly out over a bump.

Help :)

[majesticix]

and yes I'm an idiot. Established.

[norm8332]

No one is going to call you an idiot here.

I'm sure Charlie will chime in, but it doesnt look good to me. You might have to remove the manifold to get that piece of bolt out. I'd take it somewhere and have it done.

[bwooten492]

OK the same thing happened to me when I took mine off. Get a new screw from the dealer and take to car somewhere and get it drilled and tapped. Thats what I had to do.

I drove mine for 2 weeks with a broken screw and it was ok. It does cause a slight vacuum leak though. And yes you have to take the intake off to get to it.

[majesticix]

Here's a stupid idea, what if I dipped the end of the stripped bolts in Loctite, re-insert and let dry. What are the chanced it might adhere so I can unscrew? Probably make things worse but thought I would throw that out there :)

That stuff sticks to just about anything I've found, but I can't imagine these are too porous heh.

[GRRRR8]

1st its 89 INCH lbs. Thats why they broke. They must come out so the intake doesnt leak/warp. The intake is very easy to remove. Once the intake is off you may be able to grab the piece with needle nose Vise-Grips. If not an EZ-out can be used. This is another reason I have a bolt kit available as the factory bolts are prone to breakage if even a little over tightened.

[Mike@NewEra]

Jeff, come on down, I can help you out.

[majesticix]

PM sent...guess I'll get some other mods while I'm down there hahaha.

May have to accidentally break something else later on so long as my wife doesn't catch on ;)

[-Ray-]

Jeff, come on down, I can help you out.

Awesome Mike. A broken bolt is a horrible feeling.
Have that inch lb torque wrench sent to a cal lab. Somethings wrong if it broke at 44 inch lbs.

[Crazy Paul]

Jeff, come on down, I can help you out.

Great gesture Mike.
:thumbsup:

[08G8V8]

Have that inch lb torque wrench sent to a cal lab. Somethings wrong if it broke at 44 inch lbs.

Must be a Harbor Freight special?

I was confused when Charlie said the torque was supposed to be 89 in-lbs and that is why it broke.

[-Ray-]

Must be a Harbor Freight special?

I was confused when Charlie said the torque was supposed to be 89 in-lbs and that is why it broke.

I think he missed that he bought an inch torque wrench and had the other already.

I wonder if the broken bolt can be sent to me. I'd like to do a hardness test on it. I have the ability to do a standard rockwell test in it, as well as a micro-harness test.
Well, if I ever use my stainless fasteners Charlie sent me I guess I could do my own. However, I didn't break any of mine.

[majesticix]

Harbor Freight exactly. Went to all the local hardware stores and automotive and found nothing in inch lbs. Probably could have gone to Sears I guess. It was a combo of a poor tool and operator. Damn box said it would click, and it doesn't (my ft lb yells at me). I was paying more attention with my ears than the feel of the wrench. Live and learn.

If you want the stripped bolts, shoot me a PM and I can send them both to you (or 1 if that's all you need).

[GRRRR8]

I missed that and thought you torqued to 44 FT lbs. Inch Lbs are tricky. If you dont use a smooth range of motion you can go right by it and if the bolts are weak they will break.

[-Ray-]

Harbor Freight exactly. Went to all the local hardware stores and automotive and found nothing in inch lbs. Probably could have gone to Sears I guess. It was a combo of a poor tool and operator. Damn box said it would click, and it doesn't (my ft lb yells at me). I was paying more attention with my ears than the feel of the wrench. Live and learn.

If you want the stripped bolts, shoot me a PM and I can send them both to you (or 1 if that's all you need).


PM sent. I'll post what I find.

[majesticix]

Went out in the mail today.

[majesticix]

Ok so Mike got one bolt out...couldn't get at the other one because the drill bit wouldn't bite into the center of the bolt...any other crazy ideas before I have the engine ripped apart?

[bwooten492]

can you see any of the bolt with the intake off?

[-Ray-]

Ok so Mike got one bolt out...couldn't get at the other one because the drill bit wouldn't bite into the center of the bolt...any other crazy ideas before I have the engine ripped apart?

Well not an idea about getting the bolts out. If the drill won't bite into that bolt it leads me to believe they are not case hardened, but heat treated through. To break one it must be pretty hard.
Anyway, the bracket in the back is actually a safety device for the fuel rail in case of a front end collision. A Risk perhaps not to have it..........

BTW, an EDM is the only other way to get the bolt out.

[Crazy Paul]

Ok so Mike got one bolt out...couldn't get at the other one because the drill bit wouldn't bite into the center of the bolt...any other crazy ideas before I have the engine ripped apart?

If the drill bit is just walking across the face of the break, you could try lowering a hollow sleeve into the bolt hole. Run the drill bit down thru a hole in the centre of the sleeve.
Also if using a right hand twist drill bit, swap to a left hand twist (and vice versa).

[r33pwrd]

If the drill bit is just walking across the face of the break, you could try lowering a hollow sleeve into the bolt hole.


Thius works very well! also if you can get an easy out to grab at all try some heat on it...

[majesticix]

From what Mike was telling me, the drill kept sliding as a result of the way the bolt broke. I wasn't there to see what the bolt looked like with the manifold removed unfortunately. What kind of hollow sleeve are you referring to...any pics or something I can be referred to? I may have my brother take a look at it when I see him in a few weeks since he's ripped a few engines apart. God knows I won't touch this thing again for awhile hahaha.

[majesticix]

I was also told a heli bolt might work too...?

[Crazy Paul]

From what Mike was telling me, the drill kept sliding as a result of the way the bolt broke. I wasn't there to see what the bolt looked like with the manifold removed unfortunately. What kind of hollow sleeve are you referring to...any pics or something I can be referred to? I may have my brother take a look at it when I see him in a few weeks since he's ripped a few engines apart. God knows I won't touch this thing again for awhile hahaha.


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/PerthPurplePenguin/crap/1501C-6copy.jpg

[norm8332]

A dremel with a fine jewlers grinding bit to flatten/dimple the top of the bolt then drill.

[BlueJacket]

A dremel with a fine jewlers grinding bit to flatten/dimple the top of the bolt then drill.

You also want to get a center guide hole going before drilling.

When I took my cover off I snapped the head off of one of the fuel bolts and I ended up needing to drill the bolt out and then tap the hole and had used heli coil.

[majesticix]

I imagine I would need someone to machine a drilling sleeve like that? Don't imagine that is something you can pick up locally :) Seems like a really good idea that would work to at least get a pilot hole started.

Having not seen what the leftover bolt looks like with the manifold off, I'm not sure how easy/difficult it is to get to it with a dremel. I imagine since Mike was unable to grind it out to get a flat surface, it probably isn't very easy. I believe the left over bolt piece is only a few mm long, maybe half an inch? I'm sure one of you familiar with these bolts would be able to tell from the picture of the broken bolt I posted.

[Crazy Paul]

Yes you'd need someone to make the drilling guide.

Just looking at the bolt pic, it looks like a very jagged break (nowhere near a flat surface remaining). FYI the thread length is 23mm, so you have approx 20mm of thread (3/4" stuck in the head).

I'd think you'd need something like a small "end mill cutter" to mill down the sharp protruding point off the dead thread......then perhaps a gentle center punch to add a centre pop mark......then drill a pilot hole. All those done thru the center of the "drill guide".

Then drill with a left hand flute drill. It will possibly come out while using the left hand drill. If not then run an Ezi-Out or tapered wedge type tool to screw the remaining chunk out.

It's looking like a job for a well equipped engineering works rather than a backyard IMO.

[Crazy Paul]

End Mill Cutter

http://nnbtools.com/img/Fullsize/cutter/13.jpg

[todds87ss]

If there is ANY of the broken bolt sticking out of the head, I have (more times than not) had great success welding a smaller bolt onto what is sticking out. This will 1. heat the bolt making it easier to take out, and 2. give you something to get a grip on. This works well when there is some sticking out, but not enough to get vice grips on. Looks like you will at least have to remove the intake, either way...

[-Ray-]

Looks like the intake is off already thanks to Mike at New Era. I didn't know the head of the bolt broke off in the head. End mills are designed to be held by a milling machine and require it to be rigid or it will walk worse than a drill.
If you can tack something to the end of the bolt that would be the best.
Don't even know how deep the broken piece is yet.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Pull head(s) off.

Of course while the heads are off...

;)

[-Ray-]

Well if the heads are off then a EDM can be used to burn the rest of the bolt out.

[majesticix]

Yeah that was suggested to me by Mike. Just trying to find a slightly more cost effective solution if at all possible...which isn't looking good...especially when it's my only car.

[GeorgeInNePa]

My point was to cam it while you are dealing with this unfortunate problem.

;)

[r33pwrd]

call a machinest they will get it out without pulling the heads.... plung EDM would work but heads will have to come off and it may be spendy (not really sure what they would charge for it)

[DRCUSTOMPARTS]

If the bolt is hardened it can be drilled with a high speed drill bit. A hardened bolt is softer than a drill bit so it will cut if it's sharp. You have to run the drill slow, if it's going too fast the drill will get dull. I have never had to use an EDM machine to remove a broken bolt in 30 years, the only thing we use them for is to burn out a broken tap.

You can make a drill bushing sleeve from a piece of round stock from the hardware store. Use a piece that's the same size as the ID of the threaded hole and drill a hole in the center of it, using a drill press so it's straight.

[majesticix]

Good suggestions guys. I know Mike is really busy at the shop so I called two local machinists based on what was said here. Both came to the same conclusion as Mike. Cylinder head needs to come off to be drilled out with a machine. If the bolt was sticking out a little bit, you may be able to heat it up and take it off with vice grips, but I don't know how much, if any is sticking out. I just assume since Mike tried to drill it there probably isn't anything there to really grab. Doh!

[r33pwrd]

honestly if you car is at new era and the heads have to come off...

http://www.neweraperformanceparts.com/default.asp?S=503&A=E&PKV=nondod228|0

you would be crazy not too...

[majesticix]

Yeah if the heads have to come off, I mine as well get them ported. We'll see. Any idea what kind of gains I might see with the porting? I imagine it's one of those mods that works well in conjunction with other mods.

The cam probably is a no go as this is my daily driver and my only means of transportation both winter and summer. I'd probably need a winter rat if I run with a new cam.

Right now I'm driving the car and would have to wait a few weeks before New Era can even get me in. My father knows an engine guy about an hour away from me who thinks he might be able to heli-coil it without removing the head. I'm taking it to him Tuesday to have a look at it. I'm not holding out much hope.

[DRCUSTOMPARTS]

I have never had a problem removing a broken bolt while the part was still on the car. If I can get to it with a drill, I can remove it. But then I'm not a machinist, I'm a highly skilled tool & die maker. I'm sure Ray can tell you there is a big difference between the abilities of the two.....

[-Ray-]

Since the head is aluminum I'd go with am EDM to remove the bolt. Too easy to cause damage with a slipping drill bit. Cast iron I wouldn't worry about it too much.
It shouldn't take less than an hour to burn the bolt out, and whatever the set up fee is.
Set up with a mill shouldn't be too hard either though.
As you can tell I'm prefferential to EDM's.

[majesticix]

The whole removing of the head is what I was hoping to avoid. That's the expensive part.

FYI - Mike said there is no bolt sticking out to weld anything to or grab it with vice grips.

[ChicagoG8GT]

I think I'll stick to keeping my intake cover on...lol....Good Luck!

[DRCUSTOMPARTS]

Ray if your good like me, then there will be no slipping of the drill bit. I agree that EDM is the best way to go IF the head is removed, but drilling it out in a milling machine is accurate enough.

Majestic if you drill an 1/8" hole in the center of the bolt, then you can remove it with a screw extractor. If you were in the Chicago area I would do it for free, it's so easy if you take your time. Here's a great explanation of how it's done:

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Screw-Extractor

[majesticix]

Call me Geoff. Maybe I'll make a trip out there lol. We'll see what they say at the dealership Tuesday (no worries, my father was their district sales manager for 20+ years, so they won't screw me over, and they have a good engine specialist apparently).

Oh, and taking your intake cover off shouldn't be as difficult as I have made it. Just don't be an idiot like me and over torque your bolts. Get a GOOD inch pound torque wrench, and follow the instructions to a "T".

[-Ray-]

Ray if your good like me, then there will be no slipping of the drill bit. I agree that EDM is the best way to go IF the head is removed, but drilling it out in a milling machine is accurate enough.

Majestic if you drill an 1/8" hole in the center of the bolt, then you can remove it with a screw extractor. If you were in the Chicago area I would do it for free, it's so easy if you take your time. Here's a great explanation of how it's done:

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Screw-Extractor

I agree the drill won't slip if I have a knee mill. Free hand I'm not that good.
Still need a center drill 1st though. 1/8" drill will still bend. :)

[GeorgeInNePa]

Yeah if the heads have to come off, I mine as well get them ported. We'll see. Any idea what kind of gains I might see with the porting? I imagine it's one of those mods that works well in conjunction with other mods.

The cam probably is a no go as this is my daily driver and my only means of transportation both winter and summer. I'd probably need a winter rat if I run with a new cam.

Right now I'm driving the car and would have to wait a few weeks before New Era can even get me in. My father knows an engine guy about an hour away from me who thinks he might be able to heli-coil it without removing the head. I'm taking it to him Tuesday to have a look at it. I'm not holding out much hope.

If you are not putting a bigger cam in it, there is no reason to port the heads. You won't pick up enough hp to make it worthwhile and it might actually hurt you.

[DRCUSTOMPARTS]

If a small drill is used with a screw extractor there's no need for a heli-coil. You only use those if the threads are gone in the hole, in which case you would thread the hole a larger size and install the heli-coil.

If you mark the center of the broken screw with a punch and drill the hole on the center of it, you will be able to remove it just like in the link with the video I posted. I do know what I'm talking about on this matter, I have been doing this for over 30 years and it works 99% of the time. Even if it doesn't work at least you tried, and then you can pull the heads if necessary.

[-Ray-]

I have the broken bolts. I would say just by looking at them that heat treating may only extend .002" into the case. The bolts didn't fracture they were simply twisted off. I will be in our Plymouth MI office on Tuesday. I'll test the heat treat then.

[Crazy Paul]

I have the broken bolts. I would say just by looking at them that heat treating may only extend .002" into the case. The bolts didn't fracture they were simply twisted off. I will be in our Plymouth MI office on Tuesday. I'll test the heat treat then.

Didn't the bolt perform exactly as it was designed to do ?
It's been already mentioned that it was overtorqued and snapped because of that. I would think that GM and most people would prefer a bolt broke when overtorqued rather than remaining intact and breaking the plastic intake manifold instead.

[-Ray-]

Unless we know what torque the bolt broke that question really can't be answered.
BTW, it didn't snap. It twisted.
There is very little fracture, less than 25 percent of the bolt. In which case they are soft and should have been easily drilled.
My expertise is really in surface roughness not metalurgy. Although I did do a long term study of carbide to S7 tool steel press fit for the aerospace tool industry.
I'm just a metrology freak.

[majesticix]

Car goes in Tuesday morning to be looked at again. I'll try and snap some pictures if they let me into the shop just to show how the bolt is broken in there. Keep you posted.

[majesticix]

Heads are coming off. Thanks for the help guys.

[GRRRR8]

I think I would highly recommend my bolt kit to anyone removing their intake cover just as an added precaution. I have never broken a factory bolt. It could be the quality/experience using a inch lb TQ wrench, but I hate to see people go through this.

[majesticix]

Total operator fault in this case, but the dealer said if you do remove the bolts, they should be replaced with new ones...whether that is just a GM precautionary thing, who knows.

[majesticix]

Just heard back from the dealer. Their tech had another whack at it and got the screw out with a 90 degree drill...hell yeah! Should have the car back either today or tomorrow. Waiting on new bolts that were overnighted. Thank god...this Monte Carlo SS that I'm driving runs like a damn mule. Man I'm spoiled.

[DRCUSTOMPARTS]

I knew it could be removed without taking off the heads. You should take that guy out for a steak dinner!

[BobtheMonkee]

these bolts suck! this same thing happened to me when taking missnaysimon's intake manifold cover off. Was torquing the bolt to 90 inch/lbs and it just snapped! Probably didnt help that i did it hot, which made the bolt softer, less strong, less brittle, more ductile, more tough...as we say in the Nuclear Materials world

[majesticix]

I knew it could be removed without taking off the heads. You should take that guy out for a steak dinner!

Tell me about it, I owe him big time.

[gagecalman]

I work at a calibration lab in Towson, MD. We calibrate all kinds of gages including mics, calipers, indicators, torque, force and pressure. I have seen a flood of very low quality items sent in for calibration in the past. Unfortunately they are not very reliable and are too cheap to repair. Also when it comes to torque whenches some don't have a pronounced break and its very easy to pull past the break and over torque. If you have a critical torque application usually a dial type wrench works best. Also when you store your click type wrench set it at the smallest setting but do not back it all the way out until it stops turning. This will keep a small amount of pressure on the components inside. Most click type wrenches have grease inside to lubricate the breaking mechanism so you should always exercise the wrench several times prior to use. I am glad to hear that you were able to get the bolt out. Jim