Pre-mature Cam wear - "The Missing Zinc"

[EcoBrick Bob]

The May 2009 Road & Track has the following (paraphrased) article on cam failures due to missing zinc additives in our oil. Is this possibly the cause of the premature cam wear in some of our engines? I realize our engines have roller cams.

THE MISSING ZINC

Q
I'm learning about the removal of the zinc compound ZDDP from modern motor oil. It's said that this removal causes premature wear of cams and flat tappets. Do the owners of older vehicles with flat tappets or rocker arms......need to worry .....................................

A
Our understanding is the zinc additive makes life difficult for catalytic converters, hence it's removal from motor oil. As this removal - and the subsequent rash of flat-tappet cam failures - occurred years ago, logic says if a high-mileage vehicle hasn't failed a cam yet, it likely won't as it's been running on zinc free oil for a while.

In practice, the cam and tappet failures from the missing zinc cluster around hi-performance pushrod applications where spring pressures are quite high. Overhead cam engines use lower spring pressures and don't seem to be as vulnerable to this problem. The failures typically occur during engine break-in; we're not as familiar with such cams failing once successfully broken-in.

Additive solutions vary. "Commercial Grade" motor oils - that's diesel oil - still have ZDDP, so they seem the obvious choice. Comp Cams says flat-tappet cam users should use their break-in oil additive continuously, so it likely has a healthy dose of ZDDP.



Comments Please!

[MANOFSTEEL69]

Nope. The flaw comes from a supplier GM used.
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[Chewy]

If you want zinc use diesel specific oils. They're packed with it. Just don't be surprised your cat is clogged/melted.

I use diesel specific oil in my bikes DUE to the zinc. The trans is lubed with engine oil so the zinc comes in VERY handy.

[EcoBrick Bob]

Nope. The flaw comes from a supplier GM used.
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Guess I missed the supplier issue..... Do you know the time frame of affected vehicles? Is there a thread that addresses this?

Thanks

[MANOFSTEEL69]

Its my understanding that due to GMs current situation they can't afford a major recall. Unfortunately the guys that have the inside scoop can't disclose the information due to confidentiality clauses.
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[EcoBrick Bob]

Its my understanding that due to GMs current situation they can't afford a major recall. Unfortunately the guys that have the inside scoop can't disclose the information due to confidentiality clauses.
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So both my 08' built 11/07 and my 09' built 5/08 likely are flawed???

[MANOFSTEEL69]

Not if you switch to a non-dod cam ;)
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[EcoBrick Bob]

That's plan A! ---but at this time just on 08'.

What about cam bearings? What parts are defective?

[MANOFSTEEL69]

That's something that maybe the shops like New Era and Livernois can cover. My car showed none of these issues at the time of my cam swap but I only had about 4 thousand miles on mine when I had the cam done.
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[KaiserM715]

Charlie-
Did you see any unusual wear on the cam and or bearings?

[ronbuick]

If you guys are using diesel oils, you best be sure if it says for the low emission vehicles, do not use it, cause that oil is missing all the good stuff. DELO 400 comes in 2 grades,
one for the new diesels, which is all you will see in the auto parts houses, and the old
DELO 400, which has to be purchased in bulk only, 5 gal. on up, that is the oil you want to use, period. Not the new stuff, In my Turbo Buick I use Valv. 10-30 VR1 racing oil, the one in the gray bottle, it has all the good stuff in it also, HTH.

Ron

[jbradsh1]

Not if you switch to a non-dod cam ;)
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But I the article above specifically mentioned cam or flat tappet wear with push rod engines with high pressure valve springs, ala aftermarket high performance cam installs, DOD or non DOD, no?

[Ktlplxm]

If you want zinc use diesel specific oils. They're packed with it. Just don't be surprised your cat is clogged/melted.

I use diesel specific oil in my bikes DUE to the zinc. The trans is lubed with engine oil so the zinc comes in VERY handy.

Thats no longer true. Even Rotella T only has the a fraction of the friction modifiers previously found in them. If you want to run a higher zinc content for safety's sake, use something like the Joe GIbbs Break In Oil. It really isnt that much higher price than a conventional synthetic so one bottle in an oil change should do well.

[MANOFSTEEL69]

But I the article above specifically mentioned cam or flat tappet wear with push rod engines with high pressure valve springs, ala aftermarket high performance cam installs, DOD or non DOD, no?
Ahh...But the problem thats being seen isn't related to this article...It's a problem with the parts that were used by GM.

[jbradsh1]

Ahh...But the problem thats being seen isn't related to this article...It's a problem with the parts that were used by GM.

Ah so. Well, I'm using the stock rockers and tappets but the cam, springs, well you know the rest, is all aftermarket. But I can feel comfortable since I now have a DOD deleted aftermarket cam package installed?

[GeorgeInNePa]

But I the article above specifically mentioned cam or flat tappet wear with push rod engines with high pressure valve springs, ala aftermarket high performance cam installs, DOD or non DOD, no?

We do not have flat-tappet cams.

We have roller lifters.

[EcoBrick Bob]

Note: I originally pointed out that we have roller cams.

Andy at Livernois just PM'd me that issue is GM supplier problem that has not been resolved and is handled on a case by case issue. Also said cam bearings are not great....

So.... WE.... IS.... SOOO..... Screwed>>>>>>>>>>

[jbradsh1]

We do not have flat-tappet cams.

We have roller lifters.

So does that mean we're OK or just plain screwed as the previous post suggests?

[locrzn#92]

I run synthetic oil and I doubt I'll have a problem, synthetic will hopefully save all of us problems. I think Mike or Andy has already mentioned the cam bearing issue or someone mentioned that sometime back that the cam bearing don't look that good when the stock cam is removed. My 6.0 ls2 truck version looks the same and the cam didn't look to good when I took it out either.

[jbradsh1]

I had worn bearings but have run Mobile 1 since 5K miles. Guess that means the wear probably occurred in the first 5K.

[BoostedToy]

I need to hear more about this. This worries me.

[MtbDoc]

Just an excuse for MORE mods to the engine!

[EcoBrick Bob]

Just so we don't have to start with cam bearings..... I started using Mobil 1 at less than 2,500 mi. Guess we'll find out in a month or so... Now just over 12k, mostly highway mi.

[bigwillys58]

mine with only 14500 miles...


http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r301/bigwillys58/08%20G8%20GT/IMG_0140.jpg

[jbradsh1]

mine with only 14500 miles...



Are you going to replace them. I had my cam installed at about the same mileage as yours and I didn't, a bit too expensive. Just hope the synthetic oil keeps them alive and well.

[bigwillys58]

Are you going to replace them. I had my cam installed at about the same mileage as yours and I didn't, a bit too expensive. Just hope the synthetic oil keeps them alive and well.
sure aint for cost reasons also. just gonna keep my fingers crossed. ive run mobil 1 since 10500 but it was a rental before that so who knows. either way this oil still had some glitter in it:puke:

[EcoBrick Bob]

sure aint for cost reasons also. just gonna keep my fingers crossed. ive run mobil 1 since 10500 but it was a rental before that so who knows. either way this oil still had some glitter in it:puke:

Did they quote you a price on bearing replacement?

Also hoping my 160 deg T may have kept things cool enough to slow wear....(Dreamin)

Have deleted DOD in VMS tune in both G8's, the 09' at about 250 mi, so shouldn't get additional wear. From what I understand, the issue is inadequate oiling when in DOD mode. Opinions anyone ????

If this affects a sizeable number of Gt's our values are going to drop like a rock. Start saving for a short block transplant I guess....

[MANOFSTEEL69]

I say we petition GM for 6.2L transplants!
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[G8GT594]

Are you going to replace them. I had my cam installed at about the same mileage as yours and I didn't, a bit too expensive. Just hope the synthetic oil keeps them alive and well.

Mine was as well. No problems as of yet....

[EcoBrick Bob]

I say we petition GM for 6.2L transplants!
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GM would probably send us truck engines! Would this increase my towing capacity??????

[jbradsh1]

Did they quote you a price on bearing replacement?



Yep, $1200, & that was a good price from what I understand.

[Chooch]

Geez, well since I have maybe one of the few unmodded G8GT's here :( due to wifes you do anything to make this car faster I will kill you look i get everytime I mention something, now I may actually heed her advice for know to not "wack" the powertrain warranty. Still sucks though if this turnes out to be a black eye on a great car

[johnh]

Ouch. I do have a question, are we sure those bearings aren't showing some kind of "break-in" wear? Meaning the wear a bit at the start as the tolerances are close but then don't wear further--or am I just wishful thinking?

It sounds like a few people have some inside info that these engines have an "issue"? Is it the bearings, the AFM, both? Does a DOD delete solve the issue?

If this is truly a GM issue, they might as well drop an LS3 in right now.

Someone's gonna have to spill the beans....

I don't wanna mod the heck out of it, then have issues and have warranty shot to hell...

[Blackdevil77]

I asked Brian at Kaltech about this and he said it's a problem with ALL LS engines. Maybe the L76 is a bit worse than the others, i don't know but he said all the LS engines he has worked on has shown some pre-mature cam bearing wear.

[ronbuick]

That is just great, maybe a bottle of GM EOS at every oil change might help, since it has some of the good stuff in it??

Ron

[Andy@Livernois]

I asked Brian at Kaltech about this and he said it's a problem with ALL LS engines. Maybe the L76 is a bit worse than the others, i don't know but he said all the LS engines he has worked on has shown some pre-mature cam bearing wear.

while it is true that all LS engines have some exposed copper, it is only at the seam point that they usually have issues. I think its a combination of everything. Bearings a little too small, cam a little to big, material of the bearing, and the biggest is the sheer amount of oil that the DOD system needs (whether active or not).

[johnh]

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iv-internal-engine/1095140-l76-cam-bearing-wear.html

[r33pwrd]

while it is true that all LS engines have some exposed copper, it is only at the seam point that they usually have issues. I think its a combination of everything. Bearings a little too small, cam a little to big, material of the bearing, and the biggest is the sheer amount of oil that the DOD system needs (whether active or not).

So will removing DOD be an advatage to bearing life?? Please tell me so I can show my wif eand tell het a cam kit is for "longer engine life" :cd:

[Andy@Livernois]

So will removing DOD be an advatage to bearing life?? Please tell me so I can show my wif eand tell het a cam kit is for "longer engine life" :cd:

there is an advantage to removing DOD hardware in regards to this. Also, one issue that we have seen is the DOD system cannot operate and will set a CEL and possibly run rough if the wear is excessive...

[BoostedToy]

Is this an issue that will crop up well before 100k miles in which the bearing will need replacement? Does anybody have a handle on the timeframe in which cam bearing failure has arisen on other affected LS engines?

[EcoBrick Bob]

while it is true that all LS engines have some exposed copper, it is only at the seam point that they usually have issues. I think its a combination of everything. Bearings a little too small, cam a little to big, material of the bearing, and the biggest is the sheer amount of oil that the DOD system needs (whether active or not).

Andy,
What ultimately can happen when wear becomes excessive? Warning signs?

[esinger]

I’m kind of new to this board and there’s been some similar discussions involving oil and zinc additives on the turbobuick board and a product called ZDDPlus. Do a search on ZDDPlus and they have technical briefs discussing this a other oil related topics.

[Andy@Livernois]

Andy,
What ultimately can happen when wear becomes excessive? Warning signs?

usually the DOD system will set a CEL, and it will run poorly due to low oil pressure...

[Blackdevil77]

Whats a permanent fix to this problem?

[johnh]

Have we actually seen this as a problem or is it just speculation based on the cam bearing "wear"?

[Torqued]

Is there a TSB for this issue? Has one heard of someone having a LSx based car or truck having this fixed under warranty?

[breakinparts]

:puke:

[edfiero]

Yes, bumping an old thread, but the ZDDP issue is still relevant.
Thought I would add that yesterday I came across some Quaker State 'High Mileage' oil. It indicated it was rated 'SL' The diesel oil that people mentioned at the beginning of this thread is 'SM' and the current Gas standard is 'SN', so you can see if this adheres to SL standard which dates to 2001-2004, it should include all the zinc that has been recently removed from oils and should be a better choice than the Diesel oils.