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99-LS1-SS
03-20-2009, 11:55 AM
It appears that the clutch fluid has gotten contaminated.

If your clutch fluid looks like this then you need to change your fluid.

http://www.usamls.net/brandon/images/clutch_fluid.jpg

I found the cause. Read this article.

http://www.rangeracceleration.com/Clutch_Care.html


The Problem
When driven aggressively, GM cars with manual transmissions and the LS1, LS2, LS6, and LS7 engines sometimes fall prey to clutch pedal issues during or following high-rpm shifts. For clarity sake, driven “aggressively” means cars that are launched or see high-rpm up-shifts or down-shifts. And consequential clutch problems affect many brands of car besides GM and motorcycles too.

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The general symptoms include a clutch pedal that becomes
• Hard
• Soft
• Slow to return or lazy
• Hung mid-way up or
• Stuck to the floor

These misbehaviors are commonly called clutch pedal “woes.”

This video is a cliff-notes version of the written commentary that follows below. After you launch the video, you can switch to HD and full-screen by clicking the proper buttons in the embedded viewer.

The Cause
Over the years various theories have been advanced on the root cause of pedal woes. There is no broad agreement, but one fact does seem to remain constant.

Faced with pedal woes, replacing all clutch and hydraulic components with new stock parts does not prevent a quick return of the same symptoms in a car driven aggressively. And upon tear-down inspection, none of the parts shows obvious failure.

After GM’s “replace all parts” approach failed to solve pedal woes on my 2001 Z06, I sought an effective remedy on my own. Through experimentation, I found that keeping the clutch fluid fresh and clean prevented a recurrence of pedal woes entirely. Three Z06s and 700 passes at the drag strip later, my clutches have behaved normally due to my keeping the clutch fluid clean, via to the protocol I recommend.

I particularly want to thank George Westby, Director of the Advanced Process Laboratory of Unovis Solutions, and his lead engineer, Martin Anselm. They collaborated in the analysis of clutch fluid and clutch dust samples, which I sent them from 2006 Z06s.

Click this link to open a copy of the Unovis Lab Report.

That report forms an important basis for concluding that clutch dust is infusing the clutch fluid of aggressively driven cars. And it is clutch dust that, if allowed to accumulate, constitutes an abrasive that damages integrity of seals in the hydraulics.

The good news is that we have figured out the root cause. That means the preventative maintenance (frequent swaps of the fluid via the master cylinder reservoir) definitely works. It also explains why, if the seals are already damaged by clutch dust, no amount of clean fluid will heal them. The crucial element is prevention, never allowing the clutch dust to accumulate in the fluid. The tell of its presence is murkiness or cloudiness. So don’t allow the fluid to stay murky.

I think water entering the fluid via heat-cool cycles plays a roll in clutch pedal issues. So frequent changes of the clutch fluid ought to be part of routine maintenance for owners who don’t do aggressive launch or shifts.

Hope the video helps more owners avoid the trouble and expense of clutch pedal issues…and helps GM further reduce warranty claims for clutch issues easily avoided by preventative maintenance. The routine I personally follow costs about $20 and two hours of my time per year. That’s a small investment with a big return in reliability and driving pleasure.


What Does the Clutch Fluid Have to Do with Pedal Woes?
The simple answer is the ravage of heat and water and clutch dust. Clutch fluid is actually brake fluid. It degrades when subjected to:

(1) high heat produced during aggressive driving
(2) water absorbed via condensation from heat-cool cycles
(3) infusion by abrasive clutch dust that circumvents the main actuator seal.

When heated enough, degraded fluid will boil its water content and emit a gas (steam). In the hydraulic system gas, unlike fluid, compresses under pressure and causes malfunction of parts that depend on an unachieved level of hydraulic pressure. Meanwhile accumulated clutch dust will abrade the seals and make them malfunction over time. Think of what saw dust does to the operation of your eyelid. The wiping action of the lid can snag the wood shard and lacerates the cornea. Likewise, shards of copper and iron in the dust from the clutch disc adhere to and abrade the surface of rubber seals in the hydraulics. These abrasions cause wear spots and leakage where none would otherwise occur.

In the prevailing GM clutch design the clutch actuator cylinder (slave) is located inside the bell housing. That location puts clutch fluid in close proximity to high heat and blown clutch dust, especially during launches and high-rpm shifts that necessarily entail slippage of the friction surfaces between the pressure plate, clutch disc, and flywheel. These bursts of friction-induced high heat are sufficient to boil clutch fluid if its boiling point has been degraded significantly from the nominal specification on the can. The friction also expresses clutch dust that pelts the seal on the actuator where it can be squeegeed into the fluid on each stroke of the actuator during clutch-in and clutch-out.


The classic indication of degraded fluid is a change in color from nearly clear to dark and murky. When it reaches that state, the fluid should be cleaned up. If that’s not done, normal operation of the clutch hydraulics will be disrupted under high demand circumstances. This can cause incomplete disengagement of the clutch during high-rpm shifts, which in turn can lead to shift-refusals and, worse still, missed-shifts that damage the transmission.




Road racers know they must bleed the brake fluid frequently to keep their brakes from misbehaving during track sessions. Why does anyone think that the brake fluid in the clutch is any different? In fact it’s worse in the clutch because of pelting of the main actuator seal by blown clutch dust.




The Goal
Keep the fluid in your clutch hydraulics free of accumulated clutch dust. And Keep the fluid near the nominal dry boiling point on the can (450F to 500F, depending on the brand), and keep the fluid dry, e.g. without contamination by infusion of water.

If that is accomplished by frequent changes of the reservoir content, the clutch hydraulics will never see accumulated clutch dust nor a temperature high enough to make the fluid boil, the dual origins of pedal woes. And the seals will enjoy a long service-life, if kept free of clutch dust ravages.

Murkiness is “the tell” that fluid is degrading. The darker the fluid is when agitated, the more urgent it is for it to be cleaned up before pedal woes take hold.


The Protocol Steps

Step 1
Inspect the fluid in the clutch master cylinder reservoir. If it’s not clear and clean move to step (2).

Step 2
Change the fluid in the clutch master cylinder reservoir.
(a) Draw out the discolored fluid with a syringe, keeping the corrosive fluid off your paint.
(b) Wipe down the reservoir and the diaphragm on the cap, using a clean, lint-free towel.
(c) Locate the fill-line in or on the reservoir.
(d) Refill the reservoir to just below the fill-line with fresh fluid specified in your owner’s manual. Do not over-fill. If the reservoir has both minimum and maximum marks, suggest filling to the midpoint.
(e) Clean the diaphragm if dirty and properly seat it on the reservoir cap.
(f) Replace the reservoir cap snugly.

Step 3
With the engine off, pump the clutch pedal full-top to full-bottom to full-top 30 times. This action causes fluid in the clutch hydraulics to circulate, blending the new and old fluid, and revealing the color of the blend. It also helps scour residue from the actuator (slave) and displace upward into the reservoir any air trapped in the hydraulics. Alternatively, you can drive the car 5-10 miles.

Step 4
Then, re-inspect the blended fluid in the reservoir. If it is totally clear and shows zero murkiness, you are finished. If it's not, restart at (2). Continue to change the fluid as many times as needed, with the full, slow top-to-bottom-to-top pedal pumps between changes, until it remains absolutely clear and clean. Getting the fluid clean the first time is the hard part.

Step 5
Next come the easy part, keeping it clean. Re-inspect the clutch fluid each time you add gasoline or prepare for spirited driving, including the track. If it is not still clear and clean, restart at Step-2. Usually will take only two or three swaps to get the fluid pristine again.


Even badly degraded, dirty clutch fluid can be substantially cleaned up in 10-20 reservoir changes. This takes less than an hour, costs less than $10 for fluid and a syringe, and doesn’t require a service visit. I recommend this protocol for clutches on cars with LS-X engines that see any form of aggressive driving. If you follow this protocol, you very likely will avoid clutch pedal issues. And that is a very important assurance, because the car’s performance depends on a properly operating clutch.


Which Clutch Fluid to Use?
You can’t go wrong by using the clutch fluid specified in your owner’s manual. That’s a GM-branded fluid. But note that GM now recommend Super DOT4 brake fluid for all Corvette clutches.

When considering alternative brands, keep in mind there is no magic fluid that prevents pedal woes. All fluids will degrade under aggressive driving and need changing regularly.

If you want an alternative to the GM-branded fluid, I’ve used Prestone brand with good results for eight years in three Z06s. That means, following the fluid change protocol with Prestone, I’ve had no clutch pedal issue. I am currently using Prestone DOT4 Synthetic in my 2006 Z06. But I have no reason to believe that my results would be different with any other good brand, so long as the protocol is followed.

If you’re running DOT3 fluid in the clutch, you ought to consider upgrading to DOT4, which is usually compatible with DOT3. But be sure to read the label on cans you’re considering. DOT4 brake fluid generally has higher dry and wet boiling points than DOT3. Given the minimal price difference between the two, it makes sense to use DOT4.



Here an excellent chart of alternative high-quality fluids, linked by permission of Seine Systems. In this chart, note that Pentosin-brand Super DOT4 brake fluid is repackaged and distributed under the GM-brand and is specified for C4, C5, and C6 Corvettes clutch hydraulics.




The Syringe
For removing the dirty clutch fluid, I use a syringe that’s made for mixing oil and gasoline used in two-stroke motors. It has given good service for eight years without leaking. Some prefer medical syringes; others still like a turkey baster. I prefer a syringe because it’s reliable, compact and doesn’t leak. Mine was purchased at Walmart from a pegboard near the gas cans.




Lint-Free Towels
For cleaning the reservoir and rubber diaphragm, I use blue paper towels intended for car detailing. They are thick, absorbent and disposable.


A Clutch Fluid Change Kit
http://www.rangeracceleration.com/Clutch_Care_files/page5_7.jpg

In my car I carry a clutch fluid changing kit with the following components:
• Can of fresh brake fluid
• Can for storing spent fluid
• Syringe for drawing fluid from the reservoir
• Small funnel to get a precise pour in dim light
• Cup to hold the syringe and some lint-free paper towels
• Two one-gallon zip-lock freezer bags for storing the entire kit. One bag is inside the other gives a little extra protection against leakage.



How the Clutch Hydraulics Work
It’s always a good idea to go to the source document for a definitive description of the operation of the clutch hydraulics. In this case the Corvette Service Manual 2006, Volume 3, page 7-360....

Open Quote:

The clutch hydraulic system consists of a master cylinder and an actuator cylinder.

When pressure is applied to the clutch pedal (pedal depressed), the pushrod contacts the plunger and pushes it down the bore of the master cylinder.

In the first 0.8 mm (0.031 in) of movement, the recuperation seal closes the port to the fluid reservoir tank, and as the plunger continues to move down the bore of the cylinder, the fluid is forced through the outlet line to the actuator cylinder mounted to the driveline support assembly.

As fluid is pushed down the pipe from the master cylinder, this in turn forces the piston in the actuator cylinder outward.

As the actuator cylinder moves forward, it forces the release bearing to disengage the clutch pressure plate from the clutch disc.

On the return stroke (pedal released), the plunger moves back as a result of the return pressure of the clutch.

Fluid returns to the master cylinder and the final movement of the plunger opens the port to the fluid reservoir, allowing an unrestricted flow between system and reservoir.

Close Quote.

There you have if from the source.

Summary: Clutch fluid circulates between the master and actuator (slave).

Note: The volume of fluid in the entire system is a very few ounces. One ounce is in the master cylinder reservoir until diminished as you depress the pedal and create the flow described above.


How Clutch Dust Enter the Fluid
I spent time at the workbench with two Chevy master technicians (one who’s worked on Corvettes since the C3 was first released). We examined the operation of the Corvette clutch actuator and concluded following:

1. The bell housing is fouled with blown clutch dust during aggressive driving.
2. Clutch dust is penetrating the accordion shield on the actuator main shaft. That is obvious from visual inspection.
3. The piston slides along the shaft sealed by an O-ring. The shaft has a film of lubricant or clutch fluid on it. During aggressive driving, this film gets coated on each stroke with a fine layer of blow clutch dust. That is obvious from visual inspection.
4. The O-ring slides along the shaft and squeegees some of the clutch dust down the shaft where it contacts the clutch fluid and is infused.
5. The conclusions were unanimous and seemed obvious from a physical exam of the surfaces involved.

Plus, keep in mind that it is confirmed that clutch dust is getting into the fluid. The question is how. We believe the answer to that is in points 1-5 above.

Minimizing Water Infiltration to the Clutch Fluid
I've been following the protocol for eight years now and never had shift-related pedal issues. That's includes a lot of burnouts, launches, and red-line shifts. So what I'm doing is definitely effective.

Brake fluid is indeed hygroscopic. By my approach the cap is off the reservoir for very brief periods and, while that occurs, each time you are swapping about 35-50 percent of the used fluid with new. Do that one-to-three times and the impact of water absorption from the atmosphere is essentially nil. In fact the more times you make the swap in succession, the less the impact of transitory water infusion.

The industry standard for "wet" boiling point is the fluid containing 3% water. That's amount of water infusion is not going to happen in fluid that's kept clear and fresh via the reservoir. I suppose water infusion can be an issue if you remove the cap from the reservoir outdoors on a very humid day (or in the rain) and then take a lunch break. But few of us would do that. And a couple flushes by the protocol and the water is gone anyway.

Another aspect of risk is using brake/clutch fluid from a can that's been open for months or left with the cap off for an extended period. That's ill-advised. But I routinely keep a can going for 30-60 days by....
(1) cutting a slot in the membrane at the neck vice removing the entire seal
(2) replacing the cap when not pouring from it
(3) keeping the can in double layer of double-seal zip-lock bags between uses

Those steps minimize moisture infiltration to a can that's been opened.


Alternative Approaches
There are five alternatives to adopting this protocol.

Alternative 1 Refrain from aggressive driving and high-rpm shifts. This is the automotive equivalent of abstinence. It’s also an explanation of why many owners never suffer pedal woes…they don’t drive aggressively.

Alternative 2 Complain to the dealer about your clutch pedal issue. If your car is under warranty, the GM remedy may be invoked, which is swapping all the clutch parts. That may sound great. But keep in mind a clutch swap entails risk, unless the servicing tech is experienced and meticulous in following correct procedures. An additional risk is the new rotating parts may not be properly balanced. I've lost track of how many owners I've counseled through vibration issues after botched clutch installs.

Alternative 3 Have the clutch hydraulics bled. This takes a competent technician about an hour and requires a lift. Cost is around $125. But the procedure includes some inherent difficulties:
• A hard, constricted reach with a tool to loosen the bleeder valve in its barely accessible position.
• A messy job because fluid dribbles into the bell-housing and all over adjacent surfaces.
• Need for two people, one at the bleeder valve, the other at the clutch pedal; or, if using a pump tool, the other keeping the clutch reservoir filled.
• if not done right, residual air will remain in the hydraulics, causing continued pedal issues.
• if crud has built up in the actuator (slave), a simple bleed won't dislodge it.
• Under the best of circumstances, the clutch will need bleeding each time the clutch fluid deteriorates. Not a cheap approach.

Some owner install a remote bleeder valve in the engine bay to simplify a full bleed of the clutch hydraulics. This is a good modification to make when replacing a clutch. At the same time, insulating the clutch hydraulic lines thoroughly can partially mitigate the adverse impact of heat.

More details on a Remote Bleeder are here.

Alternative 4 Change to an aftermarket clutch and hope for relief. Unfortunately, some aftermarket clutches suffer pedal woes too, particularly those using stock GM clutch hydraulic components (clutch master cylinder and clutch actuator (the slave). This is especially true if the clutch fluid is maintained.

Alternative 5 Do nothing and suffer continued clutch issues, which often give rise to transmission damage.


Other Clutch Issues
Pedal issues on high-rpm shifts are largely the result of deteriorated clutch fluid. But they can also result from poorly timed clutch engagement (clutch-out) on the shift, causing excessive slippage.

Pedal issues on launch are generally caused by driver technique error--too slow a pedal release while the throttle is engaged.

The C6Z06's LS7 clutch, even with clean fluid, will glaze on launch or a sloppy shift if the clutch is slipped, intentionally or not, by a slow release at elevated rpm, say above 2500. In such an event, the friction surfaces overheat from the slip to such an extent that the nominal clamping power of the clutch is lost; and the clutch pedal usually hangs mid-way up. There is no widely accepted explanation of this behavior’s exact cause. But it is an annoying flaw in the LS7 personality. If you want to ensure an LS7 launch without clutch issues, keep the launch rpm at 3600 or less and make a very fast clutch release, with the clutch foot coming up in a single motion. Since learning that lesson, I've not glazed the clutch in my car.


A WARNING on Clutches Slipping under Load
As you add horsepower/torque to a motor, the load may eventually surpass the rated clamping-force of the existing clutch. Once that happens, the friction surfaces will slip excessively in high-demand circumstances, producing even more heat than normal. These heat loads can cause malfunction of the slave.

A slipping clutch placed under the demands of launch and strong shifts may suffer a catastrophic failure. You may have seen pictures of those events. Quite ugly and not warrantied by anyone. Last one I saw cost the car owner $13K in out-of-pocket repairs. Pressure plate exploded; clutch fluid sprayed the headers causing a fire. Not a happy ending.

Moral of the story. Know the limits of your clutch and don't exceed them. If the clutch is slipping, get a new one with appropriate clamping power.

GRRRR8
03-20-2009, 11:59 AM
Check the distance from where it hooks to trans to the header too.

99-LS1-SS
03-20-2009, 12:04 PM
From the picture above the line heads towards the firewall and then goes right to the top of the bell housing and then down the side. That spot is the closest the line comes to the header or exhaust. There is probably 6 to 8 inches under the car. I'm just going to assume that they put some low grade clutch fluid in these cars.

I'm going to try to buy some high end clutch fluid this weekend.

Chewy
03-20-2009, 12:20 PM
And some aluminum insulating wrap me hopes!

fiveoh
03-20-2009, 12:24 PM
I have LTS on the mustang... went out one day the car wouldnt start... couldn't figure out the problem for a few weeks. Finally realized the headers had melted a wire running to the ignition. Anyway, does wrapping the headers help with this kind of thing?

SRG963
03-20-2009, 12:29 PM
Header Wrap on ebaY
http://motors.shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_dmptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessor ies?_nkw=2%22+header+wrap&_sacat=6028&_fromfsb=&_trksid=p4506.m270.l1313&_odkw=2%22+white+header+wrap&_osacat=6028

I was thinking about wraping my CAI....

99-LS1-SS
03-20-2009, 01:01 PM
I have some thermal wrap for the clutch line right now. I'm hoping that will at least be a band aide for now.

99-LS1-SS
03-20-2009, 03:06 PM
What spec is the fluid in the clutch reservoir?

GRRRR8
03-20-2009, 03:35 PM
What spec is the fluid in the clutch reservoir?

The 6.2 Vette uses Super DOT 4 brake fluid #88958860 is the GM #. Any Super DOT 4 will be fine.

Devilish34
03-20-2009, 05:26 PM
that sucks

BigRob
03-20-2009, 05:34 PM
wow, hope it gets taken care of...

99-LS1-SS
03-20-2009, 05:34 PM
Well, I flushed the brown fluid out and replaced it with fresh clear new brake fluid. I took it for a test drive and it still slipped when I hit second gear doing a burnout. While it didn't slip as bad as it did earlier it still slipped some. My car smells like burn clutch every time I stop and turn it off.
What is my next option?

GRRRR8
03-20-2009, 05:40 PM
Well, I flushed the brown fluid out and replaced it with fresh clear new brake fluid. I took it for a test drive and it still slipped when I hit second gear doing a burnout. While it didn't slip as bad as it did earlier it still slipped some. My car smells like burn clutch every time I stop and turn it off.
What is my next option?

I think you know the next option.

99-LS1-SS
03-20-2009, 05:41 PM
Taking headers off and going to the dealer?

GRRRR8
03-20-2009, 05:42 PM
Taking headers off and going to the dealer?

Or wing it with the headers if you have a cool dealer.

99-LS1-SS
03-20-2009, 05:43 PM
I HATE the thought of a dealer cracking open my transmission. It will never be the same.

BigRob
03-20-2009, 05:48 PM
im sorry to hear this man, first that bitch hits you, then this. you would figure that they would expect there would be an aftermarket for headers for this car, and design certain components to withstand those, at very minimum. insane

99-LS1-SS
03-20-2009, 05:49 PM
I'm going to try to boost my attitude a little. Is there any chance that the clutches "sticking" ability was on the ragged edge from the factory and the headers threw it over the edge?

BigRob
03-20-2009, 05:52 PM
very good possibility. dont get your attitude down man, you have a good warranty, and if they need to replace it, let them do it. fuggit. i think i would take the headers off tho, in case they try to say that caused it, then try and void it

norm8332
03-20-2009, 05:57 PM
Maybe there was a problem with the clutch from the beginning and thats why the fluid is burnt.

SLA
03-20-2009, 06:02 PM
I really don't see how the headers could have caused that being as far away as they are. The amount of heat it would have taken surely would have at least began to melt the spark plug wires.

BigRob
03-20-2009, 06:08 PM
I really don't see how the headers could have caused that being as far away as they are. The amount of heat it would have taken surely would have at least began to melt the spark plug wires.

agreed. good point

99-LS1-SS
03-20-2009, 06:24 PM
I wonder if there is somewhere to adjust the clutch? Anyone know?

Devilish34
03-20-2009, 06:39 PM
I wonder if there is somewhere to adjust the clutch? Anyone know?

Does it ever have a way to adjust it? It's a hydraulic it should be self adjusting.

GRRRR8
03-20-2009, 06:45 PM
No adjustment. Clutch lines heating up has been a issue on other Holdens and cars in general due to the installation of headers.

steined
03-20-2009, 06:56 PM
THAT much heat? That's a LOT of heat. What's the fluid capacity of the system?

GRRRR8
03-20-2009, 06:59 PM
I would guess 6-8 ounces.

norm8332
03-20-2009, 07:02 PM
Wouldn't that plastic wire cover with electrical tape have been affected? It looks even closer to the headers. I'm not saying the headers didn't cause this I just cant see it in that picture.

steined
03-20-2009, 08:25 PM
My hunch would be more likely the clutch is slipping slightly over heating the fluid. I just can't imagine this being caused by headers, I too would think the looms would melt. What's the boiling point of DOT3, DOT4 fluid? Isn't it pretty darn high?

SLA
03-20-2009, 08:59 PM
Super Dot 4's boiling point is about 509 degrees Fahrenheit.

99-LS1-SS
03-21-2009, 02:14 AM
Super Dot 4's boiling point is about 509 degrees Fahrenheit.
509 degrees "dry" and 311 degrees "wet"
Apparently clutch fluid can take on water.

-Ray-
03-21-2009, 02:55 AM
Hydraulic clutch bleeding for 6.0

99-LS1-SS
03-21-2009, 03:21 AM
Thanks Ray. I wasn't quite that thorough when I bled it. I sucked all of the fluid out of the reservoir wiped it clean and filled it back up and pumped the pedal a few times. I did that procedure about 10 times.

I wonder if I truly need to bleed it?

Devilish34
03-21-2009, 04:16 AM
When in doubt bleed it. I'd hate to hear that more(if any) damage was done that may cause a problem with the dealership.

99-LS1-SS
03-21-2009, 05:04 AM
I'm going to bleed it properly. I had trouble finding the bleeder valve because it looks a little different than the picture that Ray posted.

99-LS1-SS
03-21-2009, 05:41 AM
I want to make sure I'm bleeding the clutch line from the correct place. Here are two pictures of what I think the bleeder valve is.

http://www.usamls.net/brandon/images/bleeder.jpg

Here is a close up.
http://www.usamls.net/brandon/images/closeup_bleeder.jpg

todds87ss
03-21-2009, 06:55 AM
Well, I flushed the brown fluid out and replaced it with fresh clear new brake fluid. I took it for a test drive and it still slipped when I hit second gear doing a burnout. While it didn't slip as bad as it did earlier it still slipped some. My car smells like burn clutch every time I stop and turn it off.
What is my next option?

If the clutch has been slipping, a bleed is def in order. These clutches are notorious for their difficulty in bleeding, so be tenacious. I am wondering why your clutch is slipping in the first place. Any fluid leakage?
To those questioning header wrap, you could also insulate the clutch line. Simpler and would require less insulation. I would look for a better routing solution, also (not having seen the GXP clutch setup).

99-LS1-SS
03-21-2009, 07:29 AM
I just got done bleeding it and now I'm going to take it for a test drive. The burnt fluid settled to the bottom of the container. Obviously I didn't get all of the bad fluid out last night.
I did wrap the clutch line. I don't want to wrap the headers unless absolutely necessary.

I'll report back how it did when (if) I make it back. :)

99-LS1-SS
03-21-2009, 08:07 AM
Well, I made it back from my test drive. I live in a small city between two slightly larger cities so it is hard to find a place to really "test" the clutch without having the police called on you. After about 15-20 minutes of driving I found a sparsely populated back road. I slow down to about 20 mph put it in second gear and rev it up and dump the clutch. As soon as I let the clutch out it bogs down and then takes off. I'm thinking "what the HELL"?!?!? I look down and realize that I had traction control on....dammit. Well, I turn it off and attempt the same maneuver. This time I smoke the hell out of the back tires for about 40-50 feet or so and let off. I get home and I don't smell any burning clutch smell. It appears as if it is fixed. I sure as hell hope so.

todds87ss
03-21-2009, 10:48 AM
As soon as I let the clutch out it bogs down and then takes off. I'm thinking "what the HELL"?!?!? I look down and realize that I had traction control on....dammit. .


LOL ...been there, done that!
Hope it's all fixed!

Tom@ARH
03-21-2009, 01:25 PM
I know I represent the header manufacturer but if the line is 4 inches away at it's closest spot I doubt it's header heat. If you run the car hard for 20 minutes or so you could open the hood and put your hand within 4 inches without burning your hand. I would think you may have had some slipping issues. Theres so little fluid in the master to begin with it won't take much to discolor the fluid.

99-LS1-SS
03-21-2009, 03:57 PM
I'm not blaming the headers and I hope it doesn't seem like I am. Personally, I think they put crappy fluid in the car from the factory. I'm still VERY happy with the headers! I still recommend ARH to EVERYONE!

99-LS1-SS
03-21-2009, 05:41 PM
I know I represent the header manufacturer but if the line is 4 inches away at it's closest spot I doubt it's header heat. If you run the car hard for 20 minutes or so you could open the hood and put your hand within 4 inches without burning your hand. I would think you may have had some slipping issues. Theres so little fluid in the master to begin with it won't take much to discolor the fluid.

I don't know what the problem was and I hope it goes away. I changed my initial post because I really don't think the headers are the cause.

G8GXP4now
03-21-2009, 07:31 PM
Is the color of the clutch fluid and the brake fluid suppose to be the same? I need to check mine out too. I don't have headers but I have smelled burnt clutch a few times.

GRRRR8
03-21-2009, 07:33 PM
They are both a clear fluid.

Juniorss
03-21-2009, 09:55 PM
Honestly the GTO's were notorious for having shitty fluid so it doesnt surprise me that your fluid looks like that. Compared to what ive seen on my old GTO and other GTOs, your fluid didnt look that bad.

Here is a picture of a GTO clutch reservoir, and yes it says FAG on it
http://www.ls2gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=49768&stc=1&d=1168451317

99-LS1-SS
03-22-2009, 04:05 AM
Honestly the GTO's were notorious for having shitty fluid so it doesnt surprise me that your fluid looks like that. Compared to what ive seen on my old GTO and other GTOs, your fluid didnt look that bad.

Here is a picture of a GTO clutch reservoir, and yes it says FAG on it
http://www.ls2gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=49768&stc=1&d=1168451317

My reservoir is the exact same one, Fag and all. If you'll look around the rim of your picture you'll see a film of some sort. Mine had a film too. It almost looked like gel or something that had congealed. I'm going to test drive the car hard today sometime and if it does fine again I'm going to chalk it up to shitty factory fluid. Especially based on Juniorss's experience and picture.

RxApple
03-22-2009, 08:28 AM
Haha, FAG.... Obviously, this is a company.... FAG is a notorious bearings company... I grew up about 20 minutes from one of their factories, right off of I-44 in Joplin, MO... used to have a huge sign that said FAG, but they recently removed it and put in a smaller sign....Wonder why??

chuckwi11
09-03-2009, 05:22 AM
Resurrecting an old post... I have been monitoring my fluid for some time now. I don't drive the car excessively hard (no drag racing and no burn outs) but I do drive about 50 miles each way to work all hightway at speeds of 70-80mph. My fluid is always maple syrup brown. I have changed it three times with Prestone DOT 4 and it is always back in about two or three days. This morning noticed that when I went to downshift the clutch pedal would be stiffer than "normal" and then on the next shift it would seem to be more "normal." I am clearly boiling the fluid based on the color. I am thinking I need to have the dealer bleed the system... anything else I should tell him to prevent multpile trips? I have a pretty good relationship with my service rep and she is as helpful as possible I am more concered about experience with this car.

99-LS1-SS
09-03-2009, 05:29 AM
I would recommend completely bleeding all of the factory fluid out. It's a pain in the ass but it was the only thing that addressed my issue.

dandragonrage
09-04-2009, 07:41 AM
By the way, use ATE brake fluid. I use ATE Super Blue. I don't have a MT car anymore so I don't use it for the clutch, but... It does well with high temps. (Though no brake fluid is perfect)

cowbiker
11-30-2009, 06:55 PM
My car occasionally Buzzed going into reverse and would only be remdied by pushing the pedal ALL the way. Even had the dealership look at it and say it was fine. Pulled the cap tonight at sub 11,000 miles and walla, PS. STOCK HEADERS. Did a quick flush, time for a test drive, a bit irritated by this for what the sticker price is on a GXP.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2619/4148438355_860c0694d2_b.jpg

RWD-V8
12-01-2009, 04:57 AM
After my personal experiences with my GXP, I believe it's clutch dust getting past the seals on the slave cylinder inside the trans. My fried owns a Vette HP shop and racing team. He showed me the parts and explained why it happens. Only solution is continual fluid replacement.

99-LS1-SS
12-01-2009, 05:03 AM
After my personal experiences with my GXP, I believe it's clutch dust getting past the seals on the slave cylinder inside the trans. My fried owns a Vette HP shop and racing team. He showed me the parts and explained why it happens. Only solution is continual fluid replacement.

That sucks.

cowbiker
12-01-2009, 08:55 AM
I am skeptical any solids could get into the circut. If the circut lacked integrity enough for solids to get in, fluids could readily get out. The solids are crystalline and I would expect if you boil the fluid outside the car in some controlled experiment manner, you would produce the same solids, along with some nasty vaports. Do so at your own risk btw.

RWD-V8
12-01-2009, 09:32 AM
A very small amount of fluid coats the shaft each time you actuate the clutch. Conversely, a small amount of clutch dust gets past the seal as it rolls over the slightly wet and dusted shaft. The dust particles that make it past the seal are very small and can appear to cloud the fluid. I wonder if we could find a lab to analyze the black goo you find in the bottom of your reservoir just to confirm. Perhaps GM should do it! JMO

I just changed mine on Sunday and babied the car around for 50 miles in 30 degree weather with 2500 rpm granny shifts on Monday... and it's already starting to get black again. I can't see how I could be heating it up to any significant degree??? My car is completely stock.

Scott McDonald
12-01-2009, 10:12 AM
Back before house payments and kids a.k.a. when I had some spare cash. I did some road racing with SCCA. My car of choice was an 89 IROC, and I ran it in a mostly stock class with the small 10.5 inch rotors up front. When I started I still had the stock rubber brake hoses and even bleeding the brakes at every event still got me the dark colored fluid in the resevoir. According to some friends of mine that also raced at the time it was due to the rubber lines breaking down. After I switched to steel braided lines and kept the system bled I didn't have any more discolored fluid. So I guess my question would be is it possible that the plastic line shown in the picture is breaking down and discoloring your fluid? Anyone make a clutch master with a steel braided line? I know 4th Gen Camaros have one and I actually have one to put on the IROC if I ever get the chance to do some road racing again. I wonder if it would work on the GXPs? If anyone is interested, I'll get the part no. off the box tonight and let you know.

dandragonrage
12-01-2009, 10:30 AM
Maybe an inline filter of some sort could be added.

Maybe a single one wouldn't work that well, though, since the fluid just moves back and forth. Maybe two parallel filters, each with a series check valve facing in a different direction, would do the trick, so that you only get fluid moving one way through each filter so that the particles the filters catch are not just repeatedly spit out.

I wonder what kind of filter material would do the trick. Maybe small fuel filters can do it, though I don't know if they'd stand up to brake fluid.

Might be a neat little experiment.

cowbiker
12-01-2009, 11:51 AM
A very small amount of fluid coats the shaft each time you actuate the clutch. Conversely, a small amount of clutch dust gets past the seal as it rolls over the slightly wet and dusted shaft. The dust particles that make it past the seal are very small and can appear to cloud the fluid. I wonder if we could find a lab to analyze the black goo you find in the bottom of your reservoir just to confirm. Perhaps GM should do it! JMO

I just changed mine on Sunday and babied the car around for 50 miles in 30 degree weather with 2500 rpm granny shifts on Monday... and it's already starting to get black again. I can't see how I could be heating it up to any significant degree??? My car is completely stock.

Boiling could explain the fluid loss that seems to be associated with the formation of these crystalline solids. I would not expect contamination to contribute to measurable fluid loss unless it were moisture contamination, which when boiling out of brake fluid makes a mess and lowers the boiling point.

JPEGXP
01-03-2010, 01:19 PM
BUMP!
How worried should I be about this? I have 4,600 miles on my car, my fluid is definitely cooked a little bit, not as bad as some of these pics, but it looks like in time it will be.

99-LS1-SS
06-14-2010, 06:21 AM
This article made the GXP clutch fluid problems make sense.

http://www.rangeracceleration.com/Clutch_Care.html

The quote below which basically describes how the fluid gets contaminated is essentially what RWD-V8 described. Bottom line is, we are going to have to accept the fact that we need to change our clutch fluid on a somewhat regular basis. I might just clean mine when I change my oil to keep on top of the issue.


How Clutch Dust Enter the Fluid
I spent time at the workbench with two Chevy master technicians (one who’s worked on Corvettes since the C3 was first released). We examined the operation of the Corvette clutch actuator and concluded following:

1. The bell housing is fouled with blown clutch dust during aggressive driving.
2. Clutch dust is penetrating the accordion shield on the actuator main shaft. That is obvious from visual inspection.
3. The piston slides along the shaft sealed by an O-ring. The shaft has a film of lubricant or clutch fluid on it. During aggressive driving, this film gets coated on each stroke with a fine layer of blow clutch dust. That is obvious from visual inspection.
4. The O-ring slides along the shaft and squeegees some of the clutch dust down the shaft where it contacts the clutch fluid and is infused.
5. The conclusions were unanimous and seemed obvious from a physical exam of the surfaces involved.

Plus, keep in mind that it is confirmed that clutch dust is getting into the fluid. The question is how. We believe the answer to that is in points 1-5 above.

GXPaycheck
03-28-2011, 07:09 PM
Looks like the pics went away, so can someone post pics of the bleeder? My clutch fluid is pretty dark. No pedal issues yet (other than me trying to remember how to use one!). I mentioned the fluid issue to the salesman then promptly forgot to include a flush in the deal so I will either do it myself or have them do it in the shop. needs to go in for a new mirror anyway.

Crazy Paul
03-28-2011, 10:46 PM
Just a FYI , the 2010 manual trans Holdens don't have a seperate clutch fluid reservoir.
Clutch and brake both suck from the one container.
I'll have to catch up with a guy who has one here local to me and ask him what his fluid looks like.
(If it's costing a decent $ to keep flushing existing GXP clutch reservoirs over the life of the car it may be an upgrade worth looking into??)