LS3 Swap into a 2008 G8 GT

[SpaceFrank]

The cammed L76 in my 2008 G8 GT ate one of its valves on the front straight at Texas World Speedway back in May. I wish I had video of it; I've been told the fireball shooting out from under the car when my exhaust ignited the engine oil was a pretty glorious sight. (I'll start a different thread about replacing my melted rear diffuser and checking for fire damage under the car...) After doing some research, not to mention seeing the shoddy craftsmanship on the car's CAI installation, I'm thinking the previous owner who did all this work may not have done all the recommended valve train upgrades. My mistake for not doing a bit more due diligence before putting the car on a road course and revving it to 6500 like a moron. Anyway, I'll tear into the dead engine after I get it out of there. For now, I want to make sure I have everything necessary for the motor swap.

This isn't a race car, just a fun daily driver which will be occasionally raced on twisty courses, so I'm not looking to put some huge stroker motor in it. I think the 480 HP GM Performance LS3 found here (http://paceperformance.com/i-6255558-19301358-gmpp-ls3-376cid-480-hp-crate-engine.html) is the direction I want to go. I figure it'll be just north of 500 crank HP with my intake, exhaust, and a Pat G tune, which is probably more than I should be trusted with anyway. This time around, I will probably have Pat set the rev limiter and max-throttle shift points to be slightly more conservative as well. I don't want to have to do this again!

For background, I've read this thread (http://forum.grrrr8.net/showthread.php?t=40185), and it sounds like the motor should be a direct bolt-in with a couple exceptions:

1. 2009 G8 GXP radiator hoses, upper and lower. [After-Action Edit: Upper hose = 92215927 Lower hose = 92225733, used on both 2009.5 G8 GT and GXP]
2. Upgraded air conditioner bracket (p/n 92252927) and belt (p/n 92244381). [After-Action Edit: These were used on 2011-2013 Caprice PPV. Not required for this swap, but a good upgrade for any G8 V8 to keep from throwing AC belts at high RPM.]
3. Re-use the L76 throttle body, because my ECM's OS can't talk to the newer LS3 throttle body. [After-Action Edit: I re-used the throttle body from my 2008 L76 on the LS3 crate motor and it works. I did not test the 2009.5+ throttle body from the crate motor to positively determine whether or not it would work with my 2008 ECU.]
4. Possibly have to use an L76 oil pan, which would have to be purchased new, considering that my old oil pan has a pretty big hole in it. Apparently hulkss (from the thread I linked) had an issue with the LS3 oil dipstick interfering with his Tri-Y long tube headers. I don't know if my Kooks headers will have this problem. [After-Action Edit: This was not a problem for me. Kooks headers fit just fine with the stock LS3 oil dipstick. You do, however, have to remove the dipstick and reinstall it after the headers are installed, which is a big pain in the ass.]
5. hulkss also noted in the above thread that he originally asked the dealer to reuse the header mounting studs from his old engine. I don't know why; do the exhaust studs/bolts on the crate motor not work with aftermarket headers? [After-Action Edit: The new exhaust bolts from the crate engine worked just fine with my Kooks headers. If you have weird headers, you might have to save your mounting bolts.]
6. [After-Action Edit: As noted by Greg@Pace, I did have to reuse the oil pressure sensor from my 2008 engine, as a different harness connector was required for the 2009.5+ sensor on the crate motor.]

In addition, I will probably also need to get an engine lift plate like the one seen here, and remove the intake manifold when removing/installing the block. Unless you gentlemen think it would be easier to do this from the bottom.
22885

Anything else I'm missing? This won't be my first motor swap, but it'll certainly be the newest car I've ever done, and only the second that was RWD. I'm comfortable that my friend and I can handle it, but I welcome any advice. I'm also considering taking the transmission out while I'm at it and having a local shop go through it, but I haven't made up my mind on that yet. About a month before the engine blew up, the transmission went into safe mode on the way home from work and locked itself in 3rd gear. It reset by itself after disconnecting the battery, and some forum browsing led me to believe it was probably a speed sensor that should be replaced eventually. I want to keep my stock converter, but I'm wondering if there's anything else that should be done to the 6L80 while I have the chance. Especially considering I'll probably have this thing on a road course a couple times a year.

[-Ray-]

I have a lift plate that I bought but haven't used yet. You can borrow it if you want.

[TooManyHobbies]

The air conditioner bracket is not required, but it is a good idea to swap to the two idler version to prevent any future belt issues. GXP had same bracket as the GTs. The newer SS comes with the new bracket.

The crate engine will come with the same bolts that yours came from the factory with. The factory ones seem to work better than the ones supplied by most of the header manufacturers. hulkss likely had aftermarket ARP studs which are a separate upgrade.

[Greg@PacePerformance]

The oil pan on the LS3/480 is the Camaro/GXP pan and will work just fine in your car, so you will not have to change the oil pan.
You can swap on your older style water pump if you like so you won't have to switch to the newer hoses, but that is up to you.

[Crazy Paul]

The air conditioner bracket is not required, but it is a good idea to swap to the two idler version to prevent any future belt issues. GXP had same bracket as the GTs. The newer SS comes with the new bracket.
The 2014+ SS has a similar style of A/C bracket as the Holden A/C belt throwing fix, but it is not the same and won't work in a G8 V8.
The 2011-2012 only, Chevy Caprice has the exact same bracket as the Holden A/C bracket fix.
--IMO You'd have rocks in your head not fitting the updated A/C bracket (p/n 92252927) and belt (p/n 92244381)to anything you're going to be revving the piss out of.

[SpaceFrank]

The oil pan on the LS3/480 is the Camaro/GXP pan and will work just fine in your car, so you will not have to change the oil pan.

I'm not worried about the oil pan itself. I just saw in the hulkss thread that the LS3 dipstick tube got in the way of installing his Tri-Y headers, and one potential fix was to use the L76 pan to keep the dipstick in its original forward location. Granted, I have no particular reason to believe my Kooks headers would have the same issue. Just figured it was worth asking.

I forgot to ask before, but this engine uses the same motor mounts, right? Any reason to upgrade those while I've got the engine out?

[LDM]

I'm not worried about the oil pan itself. I just saw in the hulkss thread that the LS3 dipstick tube got in the way of installing his Tri-Y headers, and one potential fix was to use the L76 pan to keep the dipstick in its original forward location. Granted, I have no particular reason to believe my Kooks headers would have the same issue. Just figured it was worth asking.


I have a 2009.5 L76, which has the same pan as the GXP/LS3 and I also have Kooks headers that fit fine. The dipstick routing is a little different but it isn't an issue at all. In fact, I didn't have to use the spacer for the dipstick bracket that comes with the Kooks.

[G8 GT V8]

I want to keep my stock converter, but I'm wondering if there's anything else that should be done to the 6L80 while I have the chance. Especially considering I'll probably have this thing on a road course a couple times a year.

Just some food for thought, but a trans cooler and a camaro trans pan, might be worthwhile...

Sounds like you've done your homework on the LS3 swap and are off to a good start with the plan. Keep us posted on how things go.

[-Ray-]

I used the same engine mounts in my LS3 swap. My LS3 had two provisions for the dip stick tube. One got plugged off.

[tchr49]

HotRodG8 (don't think he's around anymore) did that swap several years ago. I rode in it when it was still on the stock air box and exhaust, nothing special in the tune, and it pulled hard. You're gonna love it.

[SpaceFrank]

Thanks for the info, guys. Glad to know the headers won't be a problem. Major thanks to Ray for offering to loan me the lift plate!

As I think about this more, I've decided it would be a great idea to pull the transmission and have it gone through while the engine is out. In addition to the above-mentioned probable sensor issue, the history of the transmission is kinda questionable. When I bought the car, it would want to surge when coming to a stop. When I took the car down to Patrick Guerra, he told me this was because the TCM was running a tune for a stall converter, but the transmission didn't have one. After he reflashed my TCM, that behavior went away. One possibility that comes to mind is that the previous owner had a stall in there, and the dealership swapped it back out to a stock unit when he traded the car in. It's also possible that someone blew up the transmission doing drag passes then had a stock transmission swapped in.

In addition to that, I noticed the transmission shifted at 7000 RPM shortly before the motor blew. It was NOT in manual mode. This is higher than the max-throttle shift point of 6500 RPM that Patrick programmed, and which the car had been following all day up to that point. I don't know if this is a sign of the transmission being worn out, or overheating, or what, but I have to assume it was a contributing factor to the engine failure. If the transmission is going to get hot enough to start slipping after a half-hour of track time, then I will definitely be following G8GTV8's suggestion of an external trans cooler. Any suggestions on that front for which cooler to use? Should I use it in place of the stock cooler, or plumb it up in series? I haven't looked, but I assume the G8 has a trans cooler built into the radiator like most automatic cars. I'll hit up the site search function and see what others have done.

Anyway, my gut instinct at this point is to throw the 6L80 in the back of the truck, bring it to a place in Houston like Circle D, and tell them to build it to handle being flogged with 500 HP. Not sure how much additional cost that's going to add to this project, but I imagine it's money well spent if I want to keep doing track days.

[SpaceFrank]

New thread started about the transmission in the proper forum section: http://forum.grrrr8.net/showthread.php?t=40976

More thoughts:

I've been reading all these horror stories about LS7 lifters. Those aren't the stock lifters, are they? Pardon my paranoia.

Also, I was wondering what temperature the headers see when the engine is warmed up and running at WOT. I happen to work for an industrial machinery company that, among other things, does high-temperature coatings. I might be able to talk to a guy and get my headers coated while the engine is out of the car, but I would need to know the max operating temperature so I can decide which type of coating to use.

[TooManyHobbies]

New thread started about the transmission in the proper forum section: http://forum.grrrr8.net/showthread.php?t=40976

More thoughts:

I've been reading all these horror stories about LS7 lifters. Those aren't the stock lifters, are they? Pardon my paranoia.

Also, I was wondering what temperature the headers see when the engine is warmed up and running at WOT. I happen to work for an industrial machinery company that, among other things, does high-temperature coatings. I might be able to talk to a guy and get my headers coated while the engine is out of the car, but I would need to know the max operating temperature so I can decide which type of coating to use.

Maryland Speed coats a lot of headers. They seem to use 1700 to 2000 degree coatings.

[Greg@PacePerformance]

New thread started about the transmission in the proper forum section: http://forum.grrrr8.net/showthread.php?t=40976

More thoughts:

I've been reading all these horror stories about LS7 lifters. Those aren't the stock lifters, are they? Pardon my paranoia.

Also, I was wondering what temperature the headers see when the engine is warmed up and running at WOT. I happen to work for an industrial machinery company that, among other things, does high-temperature coatings. I might be able to talk to a guy and get my headers coated while the engine is out of the car, but I would need to know the max operating temperature so I can decide which type of coating to use.

GM has been using the LS7 style lifter in all GM LS based engines since about 2005 with the LS2. The only other lifter they use in a stock application is the AFM/DOD lifter

[G8 GT V8]

GM has been using the LS7 style lifter in all GM LS based engines since about 2005 with the LS2. The only other lifter they use in a stock application is the AFM/DOD lifter
I thought I saw someone post about some Cadillac lifters? Same thing as all the others?

[Crazy Paul]

I thought I saw someone post about some Cadillac lifters?
Same thing as all the others?
They're not without their own problems, if that's what you mean.
http://paceperformance.com/i-6255776-88958689-ls-gmpp-racing-hydraulic-roller-lifter-kit.html

[Greg@PacePerformance]

I thought I saw someone post about some Cadillac lifters? Same thing as all the others?

The Cadillac lifters are the CTSv-R lifters. They are a Chevrolet performance lifter not a stock lifter.

[SpaceFrank]

I see. Well, I don't really want to mess with a GM-built crate motor, so I guess I'm going to live with it.

[Greg@PacePerformance]

I see. Well, I don't really want to mess with a GM-built crate motor, so I guess I'm going to live with it.

You'll be fine. It comes with a 2yr/50K mile warranty ;)

[UGotSmkd]

The cammed L76 in my 2008 G8 GT ate one of its valves on the front straight at Texas World Speedway back in May. I wish I had video of it; I've been told the fireball shooting out from under the car when my exhaust ignited the engine oil was a pretty glorious sight. (I'll start a different thread about replacing my melted rear diffuser and checking for fire damage under the car...) After doing some research, not to mention seeing the shoddy craftsmanship on the car's CAI installation, I'm thinking the previous owner who did all this work may not have done all the recommended valve train upgrades. My mistake for not doing a bit more due diligence before putting the car on a road course and revving it to 6500 like a moron. Anyway, I'll tear into the dead engine after I get it out of there. For now, I want to make sure I have everything necessary for the motor swap.

This isn't a race car, just a fun daily driver which will be occasionally raced on twisty courses, so I'm not looking to put some huge stroker motor in it. I think the 480 HP GM Performance LS3 found here (http://paceperformance.com/i-6255558-19301358-gmpp-ls3-376cid-480-hp-crate-engine.html) is the direction I want to go. I figure it'll be just north of 500 crank HP with my intake, exhaust, and a Pat G tune, which is probably more than I should be trusted with anyway. This time around, I will probably have Pat set the rev limiter and max-throttle shift points to be slightly more conservative as well. I don't want to have to do this again!

For background, I've read this thread (http://forum.grrrr8.net/showthread.php?t=40185), and it sounds like the motor should be a direct bolt-in with a couple exceptions:

1. 2009 G8 GXP radiator hoses, upper and lower.
2. Upgraded air conditioner bracket (p/n 92252927) and belt (p/n 92244381). Are these also GXP parts?
3. Re-use the L76 throttle body, because my ECM's OS can't talk to the newer LS3 throttle body.
4. Possibly have to use an L76 oil pan, which would have to be purchased new, considering that my old oil pan has a pretty big hole in it. Apparently hulkss (from the thread I linked) had an issue with the LS3 oil dipstick interfering with his Tri-Y long tube headers. I don't know if my Kooks headers will have this problem.
5. hulkss also noted in the above thread that he originally asked the dealer to reuse the header mounting studs from his old engine. I don't know why; do the exhaust studs/bolts on the crate motor not work with aftermarket headers?

In addition, I will probably also need to get an engine lift plate like the one seen here, and remove the intake manifold when removing/installing the block. Unless you gentlemen think it would be easier to do this from the bottom.
22885

Anything else I'm missing? This won't be my first motor swap, but it'll certainly be the newest car I've ever done, and only the second that was RWD. I'm comfortable that my friend and I can handle it, but I welcome any advice. I'm also considering taking the transmission out while I'm at it and having a local shop go through it, but I haven't made up my mind on that yet. About a month before the engine blew up, the transmission went into safe mode on the way home from work and locked itself in 3rd gear. It reset by itself after disconnecting the battery, and some forum browsing led me to believe it was probably a speed sensor that should be replaced eventually. I want to keep my stock converter, but I'm wondering if there's anything else that should be done to the 6L80 while I have the chance. Especially considering I'll probably have this thing on a road course a couple times a year.

The LS3 crate engine comes with everything you need. No new throttle body, oil pan, etc. Charlie did mine, and it was essentially plug-n-play.

[SpaceFrank]

The LS3 crate engine comes with everything you need. No new throttle body, oil pan, etc. Charlie did mine, and it was essentially plug-n-play.

The oil pan question has been resolved. What I gathered from the hulkss build thread is that it's only an issue if your headers interfere with the LS3's stock oil dipstick tube location. The oil pans are the same shape and capacity, but the L76 oil pan would allow you to use the same forward dipstick location as the L76. Anyway, someone earlier in this thread mentioned using the same headers that I have with an LS3, so I'm no longer concerned about this.

It was my understanding that the throttle body and ECM both changed in 2009, or maybe starting with 2009.5 models, and that the LS3 crate motors all came with the later throttle body. Then I did some more looking and uncovered a post from Greg@Pace back in this thread in 2010 (forum.grrrr8.net/showthread.php?t=13932) saying that the LS3 crate engines actually come with both types of throttle body included. I've sent him a private message for clarification on this. Anyway, I'm pretty sure I have to put on an earlier throttle body in order for my 2008 ECM to work.

[jayj]

Has this swap been completed? And are you happy with the outcome?

THX!

[Crazy Paul]

The LS3 crate engine comes with everything you need. No new throttle body, oil pan, etc. Charlie did mine, and it was essentially plug-n-play.
You'd have to order the Pontiac G8 spec LS3 crate to get the correct oil pan.
There'll be a Camaro spec and a Corvette spec crate engine...which will have different oil pans etc.

[SpaceFrank]

No, the G8 engine swap is still very much in progress. Between me and my primary automotive partner in crime, a number of other car issues came up that had to be resolved first. (His daily driver crapped the bed, we tried to fix it and realized it was beyond our immediate capability, he needed back the truck I had been borrowing from him so I bought a crappy old diesel Mercedes for $700 and then we got it roadworthy...) We actually just started disassembling the G8's engine bay this past weekend. The old motor isn't even out yet. We're planning to take it out through the top with the trans attached, without breaking into the A/C system if we can help it. I'm actually planning to order the new motor from Greg@Pace very soon. I'm getting the 480 HP hot-cam LS3 that I linked in this thread's first post.

Regarding the crate engine's compatibility in my 2008 G8, the following is from my conversation with Greg:

Me:
Also, just so I'm absolutely sure: Is that 376/480 LS3 a direct bolt-in for my 2008 G8 GT with automatic transmission? Aside from the GXP radiator hoses, is there anything else I'll need to make it work?

Greg:
Yes the engine will work just fine. You may have to switch the oil pressure switch to the one from your engine since GM changed the connector somewhere in 2009. Everything else should work just fine.

He later clarified that I will have to use the throttle body from my old engine. It's my understanding from the research I've done that if you have a 2009.5 G8, you can use the throttle body from the crate motor. I will provide more progress updates as we move along, but it might be a while as I'm out of town this weekend.

[-Ray-]

I need to borrow my LS engine plate. I have to pull a motor in Travis' G8.

[SpaceFrank]

Okay, I'll send it back to you. I don't remember if your address is on the box you sent it in; can you PM it to me just in case?

Good timing, actually. I just got around to pulling the old engine out this past weekend, and it'll probably be a little while before the new one goes in. Thanks again for letting me borrow the lift plate.

[-Ray-]

PM sent

[SpaceFrank]

So, an update and some questions. I initially thought the L76 had dropped a valve, but that turns out not to be the case. All the valves appear to be where they should be, although some are beat to hell. All valves are running dual springs; not sure if this is stock or not. The intake valve guide on #1 cylinder is cracked, so that head at least is toast. #1 and #2 connecting rods are in 3 pieces, and the accompanying pistons liberated themselves from the crankcase. Oil and bits of aluminum were all the way up in the intake manifold. Luckily, the throttle body appears undamaged, as I'll need to put it on the replacement engine.

I did over-rev the engine prior to the failure. Max throttle shift points were set to 6500, but I know I saw it hit 7k before shifting into 4th at the racetrack. The engine puked its guts about 5 seconds later as I was braking to go into a turn. Not sure if the over-rev alone would have caused this failure, or if there may have been an oiling issue or what, but regardless I will have the ECM rev limiter set lower in the future. I assume that the transmission may have shifted later than normal due to overheating; is this a good assumption? I did not have a separate trans cooler installed.

Basically, now that I know this was a lower-end failure not resulting from a dropped valve, I'm questioning my initial choice of the hot-cam GM crate engine. I know 500ish HP isn't much for an LS3, but there's a difference between 500 HP driven on the street and 500 HP driven on a road course where you're hitting 6k+ RPM repeatedly under high load for an hour at a time. I also have a vague idea about buying a supercharger at some point in the indeterminate future, but that's something I can live without. So my main question at this point is if I should consider having a short block put together with forged rods and pistons, or if I'm being paranoid and the stock LS3 bottom end will last just fine at that power level when it's periodically beaten like the proverbial red-headed stepchild. My follow-up question would be whether that changes if I theoretically bolt on a supercharger in two or three years.

[TooManyHobbies]

If you are going to beat it, go forged now. If you are going to supercharge it later, definitely go forged now. You will have to do it eventually, so get it out of the way now. The LS3 (and L76) will definitely take a lot of abuse, but since you are already broken, fix it right now.

[-Ray-]

I bought a forged stroked short block from Livernois. It's been beat on a little bit, and John Force style burn outs courtesy of Rick Crawford. With the turbo charger, it's prolly close to 650 at the wheels. It's a little more, but it will be nasty. Also, Rick can build you a motor as well.

[SpaceFrank]

So far, we haven't been able to get the torque converter off the flex plate, because the engine won't turn over and we can only barely access two of the converter bolts. We managed to get one cylinder head off, but one of the head bolts on the other side broke two sockets before rounding off. The exposed #1 cylinder sleeve is distorted, and the block itself is cracked behind the sleeve. The remaining three pistons on the left bank rock freely on their pins, so I have to assume those pistons at least aren't seized up in the bores. The rod bearings on #1 and 2 were utterly destroyed, so it's possible that all the bearings are wiped and binding up the crank en masse. Or some of the remaining pistons on the right bank are seized, or some combination of the above. Not all the rod bolts are accessible, so I think the next step is to flip the engine over and remove all the main caps.

One interesting discovery was that the old engine had ARP head bolts and Livernois Motorsports push rods. All 8 lifters I removed from the left side had the number 2002A2X on them, but I can't find this number anywhere online. I have to assume the lifters were replaced during the cam swap.

[SpaceFrank]

After a lot of deliberations and talking to a few engine builders about forged internals, I've decided NOT to jump down the rabbit hole on this build. This is still going to be my daily driver, so putting a blower on it is not really in the cards even down the road. If I decide in a few years that I'm really bored and want to break the sound barrier, my friend and I are just going to build a lo-cost. :)

So anyway, I'm going back to my original choice of the 376/480 crate motor. Far less time and work to get back on the road, and I won't have to re-use any questionable accessories from the L76. Meanwhile, a good tune, a conservative rev limit, a trans cooler, and an oil cooler should be enough to keep me from detonating another bottom end on the rare occasions the car sees a track day.

[LDM]

Who says a blown car can't be daily driven? ;)

[Slizzo]

Who says a blown car can't be daily driven? ;)

Agree!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[jcmGT]

This is still going to be my daily driver, so putting a blower on it is not really in the cards even down the road.

Really? dropped the lsa on mine with tooley stg 2 cam, wife who is not a car person, takes is DD frequently with no comments. CTSV's used to roll off the line every day.

[SpaceFrank]

Let me rephrase. I don't personally feel like I'm going to need more than 500ish HP in this car. Like I said, I'm not looking for 10 second drag times. It's a daily driver that will occasionally see a road course, so I'm more interested in improving the handling than adding stupendous amounts of power. A big part of putting together an engine with forged internals was to support the possibility of a supercharger in the future, which after some thinking I've decided I can live without. I think a forged bottom end would still be useful in terms of longevity (it would certainly make me feel better about tracking the car, given the prior failure), but so far it looks like the cost is going to be higher than I want to spend. $6800 for a crate motor and minimal work is hard to beat.

Now that being said, since making that earlier post I've begun waffling again. I'm still waiting to hear back from a couple local shops about how much they would charge to rebuild a used Camaro LS3 with forged rods and pistons. I already planned to reuse my headers and throttle body, and I could reuse my intake manifold as well. If I can keep the total under $10k (including selling off the unused parts and buying whatever else I need to make it work), I might go that direction. Any thoughts on this?

[AuuuSSSIII YA' LATA]

Spend a $1000 on a beater and take your time.......sorry just my 2¢

[-Ray-]

Let me rephrase. I don't personally feel like I'm going to need more than 500ish HP in this car. Like I said, I'm not looking for 10 second drag times. It's a daily driver that will occasionally see a road course, so I'm more interested in improving the handling than adding stupendous amounts of power. A big part of putting together an engine with forged internals was to support the possibility of a supercharger in the future, which after some thinking I've decided I can live without. I think a forged bottom end would still be useful in terms of longevity (it would certainly make me feel better about tracking the car, given the prior failure), but so far it looks like the cost is going to be higher than I want to spend. $6800 for a crate motor and minimal work is hard to beat.

Now that being said, since making that earlier post I've begun waffling again. I'm still waiting to hear back from a couple local shops about how much they would charge to rebuild a used Camaro LS3 with forged rods and pistons. I already planned to reuse my headers and throttle body, and I could reuse my intake manifold as well. If I can keep the total under $10k (including selling off the unused parts and buying whatever else I need to make it work), I might go that direction. Any thoughts on this?

The rods are already forged. They are just made with powered metal. stamped in a die, then heated until red then stamped into a finish die. St. Mary's, PA is the powered metal capital of the world.

[-Ray-]

Let me rephrase. I don't personally feel like I'm going to need more than 500ish HP in this car. Like I said, I'm not looking for 10 second drag times. It's a daily driver that will occasionally see a road course, so I'm more interested in improving the handling than adding stupendous amounts of power. A big part of putting together an engine with forged internals was to support the possibility of a supercharger in the future, which after some thinking I've decided I can live without. I think a forged bottom end would still be useful in terms of longevity (it would certainly make me feel better about tracking the car, given the prior failure), but so far it looks like the cost is going to be higher than I want to spend. $6800 for a crate motor and minimal work is hard to beat.

Now that being said, since making that earlier post I've begun waffling again. I'm still waiting to hear back from a couple local shops about how much they would charge to rebuild a used Camaro LS3 with forged rods and pistons. I already planned to reuse my headers and throttle body, and I could reuse my intake manifold as well. If I can keep the total under $10k (including selling off the unused parts and buying whatever else I need to make it work), I might go that direction. Any thoughts on this?

The rods are already forged. They are just made with powered metal. stamped in a die, then heated until red then stamped into a finish die. St. Mary's, PA is the powered metal capital of the world.

[SpaceFrank]

I'll be ordering the 376/480 crate motor from Pace in the next week or so. Yesterday I ordered the GXP trans cooler kit, Camaro transmission pan, and Lokar dipstick. Also got the GXP rear diffuser, considering that mine is melted. That'll probably be the last thing I do, but I may as well have it on hand. I'm also planning to send a transmission fluid sample off to Blackstone Labs this week, just to make sure nothing's awry there.

Another thing I'm looking at for the engine is an oil pan baffle, since I'll be doing some hard cornering from time to time. Anyone have any experience with this?
http://www.improvedracing.com/baffles/ls3-l99-camaro-g8-ve-vf-commodore-racing-oil-pan-baffle-p-41.html

I'm also thinking about oil coolers. I still need to do some research on this myself, but I'm open to suggestions if anyone's got a favorite.

[codebro]

Could you not order the camaro version crate engine with the camaro pan included? FYI I ordered the lokar dipstick from pace almost a month ago and still hasn't been shipped. Sorry I can't help with the coolers.

[SpaceFrank]

The crate engine comes with the Camaro oil pan. What I ordered was the Camaro transmission pan, which is slightly larger than the G8 transmission pan.

On the Lokar dipstick, you might want to call Greg and ask what's up. He told me it would take a week or so to get all the stuff I ordered together before it shipped to me.

[Greg@PacePerformance]

Could you not order the camaro version crate engine with the camaro pan included? FYI I ordered the lokar dipstick from pace almost a month ago and still hasn't been shipped. Sorry I can't help with the coolers.


The crate engine comes with the Camaro oil pan. What I ordered was the Camaro transmission pan, which is slightly larger than the G8 transmission pan.

On the Lokar dipstick, you might want to call Greg and ask what's up. He told me it would take a week or so to get all the stuff I ordered together before it shipped to me.
PM me some of your info.
We have the standard stainless G8 specific transmission dipsticks in stock.

[codebro]

The crate engine comes with the Camaro oil pan. What I ordered was the Camaro transmission pan, which is slightly larger than the G8 transmission pan.

On the Lokar dipstick, you might want to call Greg and ask what's up. He told me it would take a week or so to get all the stuff I ordered together before it shipped to me.

Whoops I misread your post. :embarass:


PM me some of your info.
We have the standard stainless G8 specific transmission dipsticks in stock.

Thanks Greg, yeah it was the black one I ordered. Will PM you.

[SpaceFrank]

The crate engine arrived last week, and I think I've finally got the rest of the parts together. The only thing left to order are the ARP torque convertor to flex plate bolts (http://arp-bolts.com/kits/ARPkit-detail.php?RecordID=1325), which I found a number for searching this forum. ARP lists them as being for the 4L60/4L80, but I assume they're the same bolts for the 6L80? Their site doesn't show any other TC bolt kits for GM.

I also would like to order replacements for the 3 bolts that attach the front driveshaft to the rubber coupling behind the transmission, as it seems these are TTY and I don't want to take any chances. Does anyone have a part number for these bolts?

Other questions:

Looking at the pictures from codebro's thread (he's doing basically the exact same swap), it looks like he removed the motor mounts with the engine. I left the rubber mounts in place when pulling the engine, and had a hell of a time getting it out. I'm thinking about pulling the mounts off the car and attaching them to the new engine before trying to install it. Any suggestions here?

Also, I had a difficult time removing my driver's side Kooks headers; I'm thinking you might have to disconnect the steering shaft in order to install them with the engine in place; is that right? I finally just left the headers in place and pulled the engine and trans out with the headers tied back out of the way. Any suggestions for how best to put this all back together? Reverse of removal will probably work, but I'd rather avoid taking the chance of damaging the headers.

[codebro]

The crate engine arrived last week, and I think I've finally got the rest of the parts together. The only thing left to order are the ARP torque convertor to flex plate bolts (http://arp-bolts.com/kits/ARPkit-detail.php?RecordID=1325), which I found a number for searching this forum. ARP lists them as being for the 4L60/4L80, but I assume they're the same bolts for the 6L80? Their site doesn't show any other TC bolt kits for GM.

I also would like to order replacements for the 3 bolts that attach the front driveshaft to the rubber coupling behind the transmission, as it seems these are TTY and I don't want to take any chances. Does anyone have a part number for these bolts?

Other questions:

Looking at the pictures from codebro's thread (he's doing basically the exact same swap), it looks like he removed the motor mounts with the engine. I left the rubber mounts in place when pulling the engine, and had a hell of a time getting it out. I'm thinking about pulling the mounts off the car and attaching them to the new engine before trying to install it. Any suggestions here?

Also, I had a difficult time removing my driver's side Kooks headers; I'm thinking you might have to disconnect the steering shaft in order to install them with the engine in place; is that right? I finally just left the headers in place and pulled the engine and trans out with the headers tied back out of the way. Any suggestions for how best to put this all back together? Reverse of removal will probably work, but I'd rather avoid taking the chance of damaging the headers.

Those are the right converter bolts. Might also want to get 244-2901 while you're at it. I'm not replacing the driveshaft bolts but it's not a bad idea.

Yeah I left the motor mounts bolted to the block because it was easier and gave me a little more leverage.

I had to disconnect the steering shaft to get the driver side header off. I removed the heads and headers while the motor was still in the car and plan on installing the headers after the motor is back in. I haven't gotten that far yet, probably will put it back together tomorrow so I will let you know any problems I run into.

Good luck!

Jason

[G8 GT V8]

+1 on disconnecting the steering shaft. Had to do it for my header install and is common practice for the Kooks. Anxiously watching you and codebro's LS3 projects.

[SpaceFrank]

Well, I checked with a Chevy dealer about the 3 bolts that connect the driveshaft to the front coupler, and they want $48 for the kit with 3 bolts and nuts. I think I'll just re-use my old ones with plenty of loc-tite.

Thanks for the info, guys. Codebro, I'll be watching your thread on the installation. I read about your issue with the pilot bearing. I would assume that my crate motor doesn't have one pre-installed, but I'll keep my eyes open. I'm really curious to see what (if any) sensors I'll need to swap over from the L76. Did your LS3 come with a wiring harness, or are you re-using the harness from your old engine?

More questions for anyone who can answer them:
1. When we separated the engine and transmission, the torque converter stayed with the engine until we could figure out a way to unbolt it from the flex plate with the engine seized up. I don't recall it leaking any fluid, but it's certainly possible. As it sits right now, flat on the garage floor, the level is just below the first (larger) set of splines. How do I know if I need to add any fluid?

2. For that matter, should I just drain and refill the thing while I'm at it? The fluid in there has been exposed to air now for a few weeks. Is there a procedure for this?

3. Is there anything special to know about installing the converter, or does it just slide right onto the input shaft? One of the pictures in this article (http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/1003gmhtp-percision-industries-torque-converter-swap-on-a-2010-automatic-chevy-camaro/viewall.html) says "A quick twist while sliding the converter over the input shaft sets it in place, a crucial but sometimes overlooked step." Any more details on this?

4. The old engine was previously tuned by Pat G. Should I go ahead and get a new tune for the LS3 before I fire it up, or will the hot-cam L76 tune be close enough for initial break-in? After all the expenses so far on this project, it would be nice if I can postpone that one for a couple more weeks while I build up some more cash ($325 for EFI Autocal + $300 for Pat G tune).

5. The company I work for does high-temperature coatings, among other things, and I can get my headers coated for the cost of material. A coworker of mine who had this done for his Mazdaspeed 3 told me that the coating process distorted his exhaust slightly. This required some bench sanding to straighten out the head mounting surface, but after that, he hasn't had any exhaust leaks. What I'm wondering is how much play is allowed between the mounting surfaces on tube headers like these before you would have to resurface. If all four on a side are still within 0.020" or so of being flat with respect to each other, will the pipes deflect enough when mounted to make up for that? Is more allowable, or less? How forgiving are the exhaust gaskets? I just want to know what my target for flatness should be before I go nuts on a vertical belt sander.

[-Ray-]

Frank, I may have the bolts. I have 3 bolts that are 12 mm Dia., by 57 mm long with a torx head. I can send you a text message to see if these are the correct ones.

[Crazy Paul]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/PerthPurplePenguin/car%20parts/Tailshaft/VE-Tailshaft1000.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/PerthPurplePenguin/media/car%20parts/Tailshaft/VE-Tailshaft1000.jpg.html)

Front section
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/PerthPurplePenguin/car%20parts/Tailshaft/PW1010344.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/PerthPurplePenguin/media/car%20parts/Tailshaft/PW1010344.jpg.html)

Torx E18
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/PerthPurplePenguin/car%20parts/Tailshaft/R7177113-01_zps28f68fa7.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/PerthPurplePenguin/media/car%20parts/Tailshaft/R7177113-01_zps28f68fa7.jpg.html)http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/PerthPurplePenguin/car%20parts/Tailshaft/FemaleTorxSocket.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/PerthPurplePenguin/media/car%20parts/Tailshaft/FemaleTorxSocket.jpg.html)

Rear Section
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/PerthPurplePenguin/car%20parts/Tailshaft/PW1010345.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/PerthPurplePenguin/media/car%20parts/Tailshaft/PW1010345.jpg.html)

[SpaceFrank]

Thanks for the offer, Ray, but the torx-head bolts are not the ones I need. What I need is the coupling to shaft fastener kit, item #92148359. Looks like it's still starting at $42 + shipping on the online retailers. Thanks for the posting that info, Paul.

It's too bad you can't just order the nuts. If the bolts are 8.8 and the nuts are some non-hardened "silver" metal like the picture states, I'd be willing to bet that it's only the nuts that yield. Looking at the old nuts, it also looks like they're crimped or otherwise deformed on the rounded side in order to be self-locking, which they kinda still are. The threads on that side of the nut are also brighter in some spots, where the bolt threads have wiped the surface.

[Greg@PacePerformance]

Thanks for the offer, Ray, but the torx-head bolts are not the ones I need. What I need is the coupling to shaft fastener kit, item #92148359. Looks like it's still starting at $42 + shipping on the online retailers. Thanks for the posting that info, Paul.

It's too bad you can't just order the nuts. If the bolts are 8.8 and the nuts are some non-hardened "silver" metal like the picture states, I'd be willing to bet that it's only the nuts that yield. Looking at the old nuts, it also looks like they're crimped or otherwise deformed on the rounded side in order to be self-locking, which they kinda still are. The threads on that side of the nut are also brighter in some spots, where the bolt threads have wiped the surface.

Your answer right there is most likely the reason GM wants them replaced. Not because they stretch when torqued. They want to make sure the nuts don't fall off.

[Crazy Paul]

Your answer right there is most likely the reason GM wants them replaced. Not because they stretch when torqued. They want to make sure the nuts don't fall off.
Negative ghostrider.
The nuts are torque to yield. Proof is in the torque setting. The 55 degrees is the stretch. The mating bolts are marked with Grade 8.8 so it's not them in the partnership being deformed by design.
Making sure the nuts don't fall off is effected by making the nut threads deform when torqued correctly.

[-Ray-]

I did have item 2 and 15.
I worked on an application that the nuts are crush so they don't back off.

[SpaceFrank]

Finally got the new engine installed this last weekend. Still waiting on the headers and still have a million parts to install, but the hardest part is done.

I had to break out the sawzall and modify the pallet to get the hoist in position.
23591

Yeah, that... that sure looks like the inside of a transmission, I guess. In hindsight, I probably should have waited to install the new filter and Camaro pan after everything was back in the car. Transmission fluid everywhere.
23592

Improved Racing pan baffle installed, as well as Crazy Paul's AFM relief valve delete.
23593

My friend Bob was in charge of remembering how to hook up the harness. Greg was correct; we did have to swap over the oil pressure sensor from the L76 (located at the back of the valley), because the connector is different on the crate motor.
23594

This part was a pain in the ass, of course.
23595

The leveling jack we used helped a lot, but it stopped us from being able to move the assembly back far enough. We had to support the back of the trans with a floor jack while we moved the mounting points up one at a time. I suppose this might have been easier with one of those purpose-built lift plates, but then we wouldn't have had the leveling ability. It was tough enough getting the motor mounts over the steering rack without hitting the back of the engine.
23596

And there it is.
23590

[travis gore]

Good job! We had to use a jack on the trans as well.

[SpaceFrank]

I'm trying to figure out which serpentine belt to install on this motor. I'm using the belt tensioner from my L76. The stock belt for a G8 (GT, GXP and 2011-13 Caprice all use the same belt) is too short at 76.8". The 2014 Caprice and SS belt is even shorter at 73". 2010-2012 Camaro belt is 85.5", which sounds way too long, while 2013-2014 Camaros use one that's 81". That last one sounds like the best bet; by my crude measurements, it looked like the stock belt was about 4-5" too short. I should get one in at a local parts house today and will report back on whether it fits.

For the upgraded two-roller AC bracket, the AC belt from a 2011-2013 Caprice was correct, as expected.

[Crazy Paul]

I'm trying to figure out which serpentine belt to install on this motor.

2014 main belt will always be too short because they have no belt driven power steering pump.

It sounds to me as if you've got a mis-match of parts from 2 different car platforms and have a mongrel in front of you.
Get a 3 foot long straight edge and start looking at the engine assembly side on.
You need to make sure the main belt line is in one single vertical plane.
Put the straight edge across the face of the crank balancer and measure back to the start of the belt groove = X
Now swivel one end of the straight edge upwards until it's now sitting with one end across the crank balancer and one end across the top main tensioner. The distance from the straight edge vertical plane back to the start of the belt groove should also be = X
Now repeat with the Power Steering pulley. The distance should also be X.
With the waterpump there is no belt groove but you'll be able to mark out X with a crayon and make sure the main belt position is central on the nose of the pump pulley.

You should be using all Pontiac G8 V8 belt driven accessories including a G8V8 (or Corvette) crank balancer. Once this is done the pulleys will all be in the same vertical plane and the main belt will be the stock G8 V8 belt length.

[SpaceFrank]

Okay, the G8 belt I originally bought actually fits fine. I think we were routing it wrong on Sunday. Found the diagram on another of your posts, Crazy Paul. I'm going to blame that on a long workday, but now I feel like an ass.

Also, the 2013 Camaro main belt I picked up at Autozone was 85.5", not 81" as I thought it would be. That's what I get for checking sizes on the internet.

Nothing to see here, move along...

[SpaceFrank]

It looks like I was wrong about the radiator hoses. G8 GT and GXP hoses are the same, I assume because they used the same water pump. The water pump on the crate motor is a newer style, with the upper outlet on the driver's side of the pulley rather than the passenger's side. The lower outlet is also at a slightly different angle.

I don't suppose there is any vehicle that used hoses that would work in this application? I would prefer not to swap water pumps at this point. I figured the Caprice/SS would be my best bet, but judging by the pictures on RockAuto, it looks like they use two elbows with a rigid pipe between them. Which would work fine if I can find a pipe of the right size. Does anyone have a GM number for this? The lower hose looks similar to the G8 hose, which makes sense as it should only have a slightly different angle on one end.

If that doesn't work, it looks like I can swap just the lower outlet and get away with using a stock G8 lower hose. Then I'd just have to find an upper hose that's the same basic shape but about 5" shorter in the long direction. May end up having to use a universal hose for the upper.

[LDM]

G8 GT and GXP hoses are the same, I assume because they used the same water pump.

This should be "2009.5 G8 GT and GXP hoses are the same." 2008 and early 2009 GTs are different. My stock water pump on my 2009.5 looks just like your new one in your picture.

http://i843.photobucket.com/albums/zz352/lenmartin23/G8/Maggie/20130309_LM_D5100_04839.jpg
vs
http://forum.grrrr8.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=23590&d=1413822044

You should be able to use 2009.5 hoses without a problem.

Upper hose = 92215927
Lower hose = 92225733

[SpaceFrank]

Yeah, that makes sense. All the parts stores and online retailers I've checked don't recognize the 2009.5 change. Those GM numbers don't pull up anything in their systems either. As far as I can tell, the proper hoses are a dealer-only part, which kinda sucks.

[Crazy Paul]

http://www.tonkinonlineparts.com/showAssembly.aspx?ukey_product=6353591&ukey_assembly=818109&ukey_make=0&ukey_model=0&ukey_driveline=0&ukey_trimlevel=0&modelYear=0

23617

[SpaceFrank]

Alright, so here's the next big question. I won't be getting the ECM tune for this motor until next week, but I should be able to fire this thing up for the first time this weekend. Will my old tune from Pat G (hot cam L76 with the same bolt-ons) be close enough for the initial run-in, or should I wait?

For reference, the GMPP instructions for break-in were as follows:
-After priming the engine with oil, start it up and idle until the engine reaches operating temp.
-Drive 30 miles at varying loads and conditions without going to WOT.
-Perform 3-4 moderate throttle accelerations to 4000 RPM, then 2-3 full-throttle accelerations to 4000 RPM.
-Change the oil and filter; look for debris and particles in the oil.
-Drive 500 miles without going to WOT or otherwise beating on it, then change the oil and filter again.

It would be nice if I could get the car to the first oil change this weekend. What do you guys think? Any other tips for break-in would be appreciated as well.

[SpaceFrank]

We've got the front of the car put back together, core support and bumper cover and all. The problem is that I still have these two brackets and no idea where the hell they go. They were sitting on the shelf next to the headlights. Any ideas? They're also asymmetrical, which is weird.

23628

23629

[TooManyHobbies]

They go on the fuel rails.

[codebro]

They go on the fuel rails.

+1 these are the fuel rail stops, they go towards the rear of the intake manifold.

[SpaceFrank]

Sorry for the lack of updates. We first fired the car up last week. I performed the initial 30 mile break-in to set the rings and then immediately left on vacation over Halloween weekend. I changed the oil when I got back, and I've been driving the car to work all this past week. At this point, it needs about another 150 miles before the second break-in oil change.

The increase in power over the cammed L76 is definitely noticeable, and this is still on the 1st run tune file from Pat G. I finally got around to sending him some data logs this morning, so I'll probably have an update early next week. Aside from the idle recovery being a little shaky (which Pat should fix in the next iteration), the car runs great. Transmission is behaving fine as well, which is a relief. I had some lingering apprehension regarding whether anything in the transmission had been damaged at the track when the engine became ventilated. I haven't installed the GXP trans cooler yet, but it'll go on for sure before the car returns to the track. I mainly want to get the engine tune ironed out, then get some baseline data on transmission fluid temperature beforehand so I can compare it with after the cooler is installed. I have to say I'm not terribly happy with the Lokar transmission dipstick. It's a flexible universal unit for the 6L80, it doesn't attach positively to the transmission (just slips in where the locking fill plug went), and it actually seems too long for the G8. The top end mounts to the body rather than the engine. I've got it zip-tied in place for the time being because it made the transmission fluid much easier to fill, but I will probably remove it and look for a unit that fits a little better.

I'll add some pics and/or video after I clean up the roasted trunk lid and install the GXP diffuser panel. For now, I'm leaving the scorched paint (from the 100 MPH oil fire after the rods escaped captivity). A new rear bumper cover is expensive, and so is professional-level paint work. Besides, the blackened rear end adds character. :)

[-Ray-]

Congrats on getting it back together.

[wastedrubber]

Sounds like a good route to go for better power and reliability over a L76 without too many hassles.

[twistedg8]

Nice reads on this thread......I was interested in L76 to Ls3 swap , thanks for info :thumbsup: