Magnacharger or LTs + cam

[norm8332]

I'm doing one or the other but I can't seem to make up my mind. Both have their good and bad points.

Reasons for cam/LTs: I would like to ditch the DOD cam setup, especially since Andy@Livernois stated that he is seeing excessive wear on the cam bearings with raised rev limiters. Of course next would be added power from a cam upgrade. And I would also go with the ARH LTs to finish it off. I'm a little hesitant here because I use the car as a DD and am not too keen on loud exhausts. Yeah I know it has been said that if you keep the stock muffs that it isn't "Loud". But I prefer stealth.

OR

Just have a Magnacharger slapped on for around the same price without the headers and maybe a little more power. The rev limiter would be returned to stock with the supercharger. I would have to re-tune the trans.

I'm currently leaning toward the supercharger, I just need sume help making the final decision so I can start planning.

Any suggestions are welcome.

It has to be fast!:brain:

[GRRRR8]

With the stock muffs its about as stealth as it gets. Many members have come to see/hear my car and cant believe that it has headers. Power wise the 2 combos you have chosen make about the same. Both can make more, more boost/bigger cam and head work. I dont think you can go wrong either way.

[norm8332]

Thanks, Charlie

The reason i was leaning a bit to the supercharger is I doesnt require as much of a tear-down of the engine and I felt it would also be quicker install as to labor. I've had mostly bad experiences with people other than myself working on my cars and I think the Magnacharger with it's included instructions is just an easier and safer install because no engine internals are involved.

I know that there are a lot of mechanics out there that are very good and treat your car like it's theirs when doing work, but unfortunately I haven't met one yet so I have a bias.

One thing I was concerned about with the supercharger is the "wasted" power that is need to turn the supercharger itself causing more stress on the engine than the cam setup would.

Does anyone have any idea of how much power it wastes?

Which setup would be better for longevity of the motor in a daily driver? I know it will be lessened with any increase in power, but is one better than the other?

[Andy@Livernois]

BOTH!!! :D

In all honesty I guess I would look at it like this:

The cam package will yield you about the same power of the maggie, but the maggie does have one advantage, you can easily up the boost and make more. I will admit, the cam kit will be done power wise at whatever it makes, unless of course you add boost.

The way I would do it on my own car is this:

Cam kit first, then IF I got used to it I would look at a maggie later. The reason for this is sheer cost. Doing the maggie first, and then adding a cam will add alot more in labor because you are installing the blower twice. Plus the camshaft reminds people of what it is :D

[GRRRR8]

I think the supercharger is very stealth as the exhaust note stays smooth with no lope. The supercharger install is a breeze! There is a lot more involved for heads and cam. The cam is increasing RPMs so I would say in one way it causes wear from that and the supercharger does in its own way too, BUT if you are not thrashing the shit of it 7 days a week both combos will go 100k with no issues. Things fail when they are constantly stressed. How a bout a maggie and some long tubes? With a Roto and a good tune with LTs and the factory boost setting I could see 460-470 easily! :woohoo:

[Andy@Livernois]

Also forgot to add, While we love magnacharger, it will add about 75+ lbs to the nose of the car, where the cam kit actually lightens it a little... Either way you cant go wrong...

[norm8332]

Thanks guys for all the input.

Anyways, I think although what Andy is suggesting would be great, I think for my fully non-track car that 460whp or so would be fine for me. Plus this car is driven in the winter, a large cam would make that a task. Oh and the weight will be offset by my full spare and tools.

I think I'll go with the supercharger first and then as Charlie suggested, add the LTs and a smaller pulley down the line if I still want more. (always want more it seems :auto:)

Thats all I needed was a little nudge thanks!

Now I just have to decide whether I install it or take the easy way.. Andy you guys do these right?

I gotta change the sig!

[p71]

I have the same dilema...

I am leaning towards the cam... here is why:

The maggie costs slightly more...
The maggie hp is about the same but it has more tq... will make the cam car easier to drive.
As Andy says cam package is a better foundation to build on if you want to go FI later.

on the other hand maggie will get you a half warranty, and better gas mileage.

[Chewy]

I like N/A cars myself. I love the sound of a cam and if you can get around 450rwhp that way it's all GOOD!

Chris

[GRRRR8]

I have the same dilema...

I am leaning towards the cam... here is why:

The maggie costs slightly more...
The maggie hp is about the same but it has more tq... will make the cam car easier to drive.
As Andy says cam package is a better foundation to build on if you want to go FI later.

on the other hand maggie will get you a half warranty, and better gas mileage.

Its a good foundation except for the shortblock when you add a Maggie. This is my LOOOOONG term plan. Get it deep in the 11s with heads and cam, build a stroker short block and add a Maggie.

[VegasNate]

BOTH!!! :D

In all honesty I guess I would look at it like this:

The cam package will yield you about the same power of the maggie, but the maggie does have one advantage, you can easily up the boost and make more. I will admit, the cam kit will be done power wise at whatever it makes, unless of course you add boost.

The way I would do it on my own car is this:

Cam kit first, then IF I got used to it I would look at a maggie later. The reason for this is sheer cost. Doing the maggie first, and then adding a cam will add alot more in labor because you are installing the blower twice. Plus the camshaft reminds people of what it is :D


You read my mind!

[Andy@Livernois]

Thanks guys for all the input.

Anyways, I think although what Andy is suggesting would be great, I think for my fully non-track car that 460whp or so would be fine for me. Plus this car is driven in the winter, a large cam would make that a task. Oh and the weight will be offset by my full spare and tools.

I think I'll go with the supercharger first and then as Charlie suggested, add the LTs and a smaller pulley down the line if I still want more. (always want more it seems :auto:)

Thats all I needed was a little nudge thanks!

Now I just have to decide whether I install it or take the easy way.. Andy you guys do these right?

I gotta change the sig!

yes we do, they are 6500 installed for the mp1900 kit, and 7300 installed for the mp2300 system...

I wasn't even thinking about the money aspect...

And actually from my experience, a cammed car is easier to drive in the winter then a blower... it's more predictable... Either way you can't go wrong...

[Andy@Livernois]

Its a good foundation except for the shortblock when you add a Maggie. This is my LOOOOONG term plan. Get it deep in the 11s with heads and cam, build a stroker short block and add a Maggie.

this week ;)

[norm8332]

I wish I could have you guys install it that is a decent price...the logistics are a pain because of the distance though. No good shops in my area mainly because this area is so depressed that most can't afford this kind of stuff.

[Andy@Livernois]

I wish I could have you guys install it that is a decent price...the logistics are a pain because of the distance though. No good shops in my area mainly because this area is so depressed that most can't afford this kind of stuff.

we could always pick it up :D

[VegasNate]

I would have done that if I didn't live a gazillion miles away from your shop

[SLVRG8GT]

yes we do, they are 6500 installed for the mp1900 kit, and 7300 installed for the mp2300 system...

I wasn't even thinking about the money aspect...

And actually from my experience, a cammed car is easier to drive in the winter then a blower... it's more predictable... Either way you can't go wrong...

Whats the difference in the systems? (1900 vs 2300) I'm in the market at well to have this done in the spring to summer. Gotta bring the wife on vacation first and butter her up :)

[Andy@Livernois]

Whats the difference in the systems? (1900 vs 2300) I'm in the market at well to have this done in the spring to summer. Gotta bring the wife on vacation first and butter her up :)

the 2300 system is for someone that wants to exceed the power capacity of a stock shortblock (well, the 1900 could probably do it too, but, you get what I mean)

The 1900 can do about 700 rwhp, the 2300 can do about 950...

[GeorgeInNePa]

Its a good foundation except for the shortblock when you add a Maggie. This is my LOOOOONG term plan. Get it deep in the 11s with heads and cam, build a stroker short block and add a Maggie.

You had me right until the end. ;)

Replace maggie with turbo and there's my plan for Great Success!

[GeorgeInNePa]

I wish I could have you guys install it that is a decent price...the logistics are a pain because of the distance though. No good shops in my area mainly because this area is so depressed that most can't afford this kind of stuff.

New Era is in Rochester, that's just a few hours away.

[GRRRR8]

You had me right until the end. ;)

Replace maggie with turbo and there's my plan for Great Success!

Thats a 2300 Maggie. I like my LTs and I am not sacrificing them, BUT we may have some news on a STS kit soon. ;)

[GeorgeInNePa]

Thats a 2300 Maggie. I like my LTs and I am not sacrificing them, BUT we may have some news on a STS kit soon. ;)


Ahhh, but the used headers can be sold to help fund the turbo system.

;)

[MtbDoc]

Thats a 2300 Maggie. I like my LTs and I am not sacrificing them, BUT we may have some news on a STS kit soon. ;)

STS is underwhelming. They will do quite well on a dyno, and actually are fast w/ an auto (that can be stalled) at the strip. I just don't like the lag in daily road use. I sold mine...

This thread is the same sort of stuff that keeps rattling around in my head. I am ALL over the place (and the Mrs still isn't convinced we need another 500+rwhp car...and then I have the 800hp project car that may NEVER get finished as well...) trying to sort out options.

I was actually kind of intrigued w/ the Procharger as well, but the install looks to be a pain. Actually, the GenTT turbo kit is quite the deal at $5600 shipped at the present...but I've already GOT a TT car.

The cam + headers power is superb on this car, which I see as a testament to the great heads this engine has.

My priorities include cost, ease of install, tuning (somewhat of a problem as there really isn't anyone locally I want to trust w/ this), and impact on fuel economy. What I DON'T want to do is spend $6k on a Maggie, then decide I need 1700 for headers, $ for pulley change, and $$ for another tune. Later of course the wish I'd have done the cam in the first place...


My name is Jack and I am a horsepower addict.

[GRRRR8]

STS is underwhelming. They will do quite well on a dyno, and actually are fast w/ an auto (that can be stalled) at the strip. I just don't like the lag in daily road use. I sold mine...

This thread is the same sort of stuff that keeps rattling around in my head. I am ALL over the place (and the Mrs still isn't convinced we need another 500+rwhp car...and then I have the 800hp project car that may NEVER get finished as well...) trying to sort out options.

I was actually kind of intrigued w/ the Procharger as well, but the install looks to be a pain. Actually, the GenTT turbo kit is quite the deal at $5600 shipped at the present...but I've already GOT a TT car.

The cam + headers power is superb on this car, which I see as a testament to the great heads this engine has.

My priorities include cost, ease of install, tuning (somewhat of a problem as there really isn't anyone locally I want to trust w/ this), and impact on fuel economy. What I DON'T want to do is spend $6k on a Maggie, then decide I need 1700 for headers, $ for pulley change, and $$ for another tune. Later of course the wish I'd have done the cam in the first place...


My name is Jack and I am a horsepower addict.

LOL! I hear STS has changed their turbos to help eliminate the lag.

[norm8332]

yes we do, they are 6500 installed for the mp1900 kit, and 7300 installed for the mp2300 system...


How much less install? PM if need be..

Thanks

[MtbDoc]

LOL! I hear STS has changed their turbos to help eliminate the lag.

The reality of the situation is that heat loss is your enemy. Short of a WELL insulated exhaust system, you simply cannot size the exhaust housing/turbine to both spool quickly (when you first hit it, and the exhaust is cooler and slower) AND be efficient when you are shoving many times more air through it under boost. If it were PERFECTLY insulated from heat loss back to the turbine, then the only additional lag would be due to the trivial increase in both exhaust pipe volume and intake pipe volume (or hot-side and cold-side, if you prefer). But the reality is that even w/ a V8 there is going to be lag.

Building boost at the line against the stall eliminates that at the strip, though.

[GRRRR8]

I know, I drove a few equipt with the system. It might be better, but I dont think there is a permanent fix.

[SLVRG8GT]

The 1900 can do about 700 rwhp, the 2300 can do about 950...

700rwhp? Wow. :zing: Whats the psi for that kind of power? Dosen't sound the tranny could hold up to that kind of hp stock. I'm looking to get somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 rwhp. This is my daily driver and I'm looking for relyability as well. What else would I need to do to ensure this with the maggie?

[Andy@Livernois]

700rwhp? Wow. :zing: Whats the psi for that kind of power? Dosen't sound the tranny could hold up to that kind of hp stock. I'm looking to get somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 rwhp. This is my daily driver and I'm looking for relyability as well. What else would I need to do to ensure this with the maggie?

Well, I will be the first to say. I dont know... Now the engine, trans, and other parts wont be an issue at that level. But the fuel system might need reworking a little for that power to be safe and reliable. I think if you want the ultimate in reliability it would be maggie + cam, just cause we aren't confident teh DOD system will handle the abuse alot of people are giving their cars... :D Time will tell, but the non-dod system has ALOT more real world abuse then the DOD system...

[SLVRG8GT]

Time will tell, but the non-dod system has ALOT more real world abuse then the DOD system...

From your experience with the non-dod setup what kind of real word milage difference driving like a human being are we talking about?

[p71]

Get the JBA headers, the tt, kooks x pipe, the sts the maggie 2300 and a cam.

What could possibly go wrong?

[p71]

And actually from my experience, a cammed car is easier to drive in the winter then a blower... it's more predictable... Either way you can't go wrong...

Think I said that... ;)

[evilb]

Cam kit first, then IF I got used to it I would look at a maggie later. The reason for this is sheer cost. Doing the maggie first, and then adding a cam will add alot more in labor because you are installing the blower twice. Plus the camshaft reminds people of what it is :D

I think the customer would have to keep in mind that if he were to do the cam first with the plans of doing the Magnacharger later, his cam choice needs to be adjusted accordingly. This would, in turn, hinder his gains from the initial cam swap, but improve his gains when adding the Magnacharger to the equation.

Correct?

B

[GRRRR8]

Correct. A true blower cams specs will be different then a N/A cam.

[VegasNate]

Now my head is going to explode

[SLVRG8GT]

I think the customer would have to keep in mind that if he were to do the cam first with the plans of doing the Magnacharger later, his cam choice needs to be adjusted accordingly. This would, in turn, hinder his gains from the initial cam swap, but improve his gains when adding the Magnacharger to the equation.

Correct?

B


Information overload :uhm:

Ok what Im hearing here is do a cam first (cam, lifters, and rocker arms I'm assuming) If I went with one of the aftermarket cams (looking at new eras since I'm in NJ and the install there would be realistic) I see dod low and high lift and a non dod cam) If I plan on adding the maggie later would it make a difference which way I went? (dod aftermerket vs non dod)

like I said earlier this is a daily driver and I want to keep the low profile stealth with little lope but still bring it to the track (EnglishTown - Atco NJ) occasionally and have people scratch there heads on my 1/4 runs) :)

I appreciate the feedback from all of you.

[Andy@Livernois]

From your experience with the non-dod setup what kind of real word milage difference driving like a human being are we talking about?

Well, So far the guys w/ G8's haven't driven them like normal human beings :D but this cam kit has been around awhile, and usually its about 1mpg different compared to stock, but not always in the bad way :D...


Think I said that... ;)

You did ;) but I was agreeing


I think the customer would have to keep in mind that if he were to do the cam first with the plans of doing the Magnacharger later, his cam choice needs to be adjusted accordingly. This would, in turn, hinder his gains from the initial cam swap, but improve his gains when adding the Magnacharger to the equation.

Correct?

B

Well, yes and no... you would be very surprised but this cam, this EXACT cam is being used on a customers 2006 A6 C6 vette to yield over 750 rwhp with a procharger... If you spec it right you really can have a cam that works beautifully as a driver cam for NA, or a supercharger... now turbo would be different. But a great street cam is VERY VERY close in specs to a blower specific cam... this is part of our reason for this cam as well since it does lend itself so well to a blower...


Correct. A true blower cams specs will be different then a N/A cam.

to a point... an NA only cam would be different then a blower only cam... but you can find (as we have) a cam that works great with both... could you eek another 5-10 out of it NA with an NA only cam? sure... but I don't think the drivability would be as good, or the torque...


Information overload :uhm:

Ok what Im hearing here is do a cam first (cam, lifters, and rocker arms I'm assuming) If I went with one of the aftermarket cams (looking at new eras since I'm in NJ and the install there would be realistic) I see dod low and high lift and a non dod cam) If I plan on adding the maggie later would it make a difference which way I went? (dod aftermerket vs non dod)

like I said earlier this is a daily driver and I want to keep the low profile stealth with little lope but still bring it to the track (EnglishTown - Atco NJ) occasionally and have people scratch there heads on my 1/4 runs) :)

I appreciate the feedback from all of you.

I am not ready to start suggesting DOD cams, there just aren't enough out there in the real world. I applaud Mike for the work he is doing, but it will take awhile to make it perfect, and really find out the limits of the system... Where the non-dod is already proven to 7500+rpm and hundreds of thousands of miles of abuse...

[p71]

Information overload :uhm:

Ok what Im hearing here is do a cam first (cam, lifters, and rocker arms I'm assuming) If I went with one of the aftermarket cams (looking at new eras since I'm in NJ and the install there would be realistic) I see dod low and high lift and a non dod cam) If I plan on adding the maggie later would it make a difference which way I went? (dod aftermerket vs non dod)

like I said earlier this is a daily driver and I want to keep the low profile stealth with little lope but still bring it to the track (EnglishTown - Atco NJ) occasionally and have people scratch there heads on my 1/4 runs) :)

I appreciate the feedback from all of you.

I have no liability issues like Andy does so... my opinion from being a forum whore is that Mike's low lift dod cam will do the trick... talk to him he is a good guy and will get back to you.

If you want utmost reliabilty go with a non dod cam. Your gas mileage will drop a little... but hey...

from what I hear the stealth setup is ARH or Kooks, stock muffs and a mild cam... gives you high 300s low 400s to the wheels and a fairly sedate idle...

I will now let the experts correct me.

[p71]

The one thing i would caution if you are starting with the cam and planning on adding the maggie is not to mess with the compression too much... again I will defer to Andy on that for actual numbers or rebutal.

[Andy@Livernois]

The one thing i would caution if you are starting with the cam and planning on adding the maggie is not to mess with the compression too much... again I will defer to Andy on that for actual numbers or rebutal.

I 100% agree it's at a good compression right now. 10.4 would do great with boost :D I wish Pauls car had stock mufflers on the back so we could have had a little more idea of a stealth setup. Oh well, eventually we can do that.

[Steve]

what about a stage 2 with maggie? :)

[Andy@Livernois]

what about a stage 2 with maggie? :)

nah... too big, unless you did a 404 :D

[G8GT594]

I 100% agree it's at a good compression right now. 10.4 would do great with boost :D I wish Pauls car had stock mufflers on the back so we could have had a little more idea of a stealth setup. Oh well, eventually we can do that.

Depending on how business is this month, i might go the mp1900 route. If not then a stall to tie me over. I still have the stock axle backs if you wanna mess around with them when i bring my car in next.

[Andy@Livernois]

maybe ;)

[SLVRG8GT]

Thanks for the great feedback. I'll talk to Mike and decide weather the low-dod or non-dod cam will be a better fit for me. I'm assuming the non-dod but Im still concerned about lope. His writeup on the site says there is little difference in lope from stock and that what i want for my daily driver.

[jbradsh1]

I 100% agree it's at a good compression right now. 10.4 would do great with boost :D I wish Pauls car had stock mufflers on the back so we could have had a little more idea of a stealth setup. Oh well, eventually we can do that.

Well Andy, you'll have my G8 to test pretty soon now. I've decided that I'd like to try and keep the Kooks shorties & Magnaflow X pipe, which has two added resonators after it, all connected to stock muffs. It's pretty stealthy.

[Blackdevil77]

If I had the money, id probably be doing the pro-charger over the cam. Messing with the internals makes me uneasy also. I just with it wasn't so damn expensive!!!! 6600 bucks then installation on top of that!!!

[bwooten492]

Go blower!

[Blackdevil77]

Go blower!

Cam=approx $3000. Blower=approx $8000!

[PantherGTBlack]

Cam=approx $3000. Blower=approx $8000!

Go Cam!!! haha, leave that d-bag in the crustang with some drool on his chin as you roll on him from the light.

[bwooten492]

Cam=approx $3000. Blower=approx $8000!

Hey we aren't spending my money here! If I had the cash I would get a blower, but obviously I don't because I dont even have headers! lol :(

[p71]

Cam=approx $3000. Blower=approx $8000!

more like cam exhaust and head work 5500 maggie 6500

[Blackdevil77]

more like cam exhaust and head work 5500 maggie 6500

does the 6500 include professional installation? I'd rather have exhaust, cam and head work before a super-charger. That comes later on :)

[Andy@Livernois]

does the 6500 include professional installation? I'd rather have exhaust, cam and head work before a super-charger. That comes later on :)

yes... yes it does :D

[bigwillys58]

BOTH!!! :D

In all honesty I guess I would look at it like this:

The cam package will yield you about the same power of the maggie, but the maggie does have one advantage, you can easily up the boost and make more. I will admit, the cam kit will be done power wise at whatever it makes, unless of course you add boost.

The way I would do it on my own car is this:

Cam kit first, then IF I got used to it I would look at a maggie later. The reason for this is sheer cost. Doing the maggie first, and then adding a cam will add alot more in labor because you are installing the blower twice. Plus the camshaft reminds people of what it is :D
i like this idea