New NHRA rules- No More cage req. for 2008 and newer hardtop cars 9.99 and slower

[G8-4-Speed]

http://ls1tech.com/articles/nhra-amends-roll-barcage-rules-for-2008-and-newer-street-vehicles/

http://www.streetlegaltv.com/news/nhra-amends-roll-barcage-rules-for-08-later-street-vehicles/

[-Ray-]

We posted that in Steve's thread already.

"What do I need for Drag Racing? (roll bar rules)" (http://forum.grrrr8.net/showthread.php?t=264)

[locrzn#92]

Thanks Rick, Ray what am I going to do with you? Ha I've been hesitant about anymore mods because of that rule, I sure did when I was young, but I really love my license and I don't need a street racing award from the Hwy Patrol. Nice rule change. One thing that will happen is all tracks will be extra tough on cars running 9.99 and below with no cage. Ray is is gettin nasty in Indiana? Its like a blizzard here in the middle of Missouri, winds have been in excess of 50 mph, my electricity was off for almost 5 hours, had to start my generator.

[-Ray-]

Just a little windy right now. Temp is still too high for snow. Gonna be a couple hours before it cools off.

[Devilish34]

unaltered 2008 and newer

[gr8lover]

unaltered 2008 and newer

I think they will come out with more info that clarifies this a bit..... I am thinking tracks around michigan will still be tough on this.... unless your a vette or a beyron, lambo, or high end sports car.... you will not get away with it..... but we will see..... a yugo with a new engine nitrous will not be allowed to run in the 10's without a roll bar... :)

[locrzn#92]

We recorded 52 mph today, probably gonna need a cage for that shit for sure. Supposed to let up later tonight. I hope the rule change will bring a lot more late model bad ass cars to the track, it will also help the aftermarket with more sales I would think once people know they aren't gonna get kicked off every track they'll start spending money to go faster.

[Devilish34]

I think they will come out with more info that clarifies this a bit..... I am thinking tracks around michigan will still be tough on this.... unless your a vette or a beyron, lambo, or high end sports car.... you will not get away with it..... but we will see..... a yugo with a new engine nitrous will not be allowed to run in the 10's without a roll bar... :)

Maybe but Unaltered 2008 OEM model year and newer means just that to me..

[G8GT721]

Maybe but Unaltered 2008 OEM model year and newer means just that to me..

Me too


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Daniel Linnett]

Hmmm so we are altered though right? Or does it mean as long as the body is factory and not changed or pulled off safety equip we can run 10.00? If so that will get alot more guys to mod further. I will not cage my car until I am forced to. For my safety if I hit 145 in 1/4 I'll cage her.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Devilish34]

Hmmm so we are altered though right? Or does it mean as long as the body is factory and not changed or pulled off safety equip we can run 10.00? If so that will get alot more guys to mod further. I will not cage my car until I am forced to. For my safety if I hit 145 in 1/4 I'll cage her.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/unaltered

[Daniel Linnett]

Funny man. So how are they going to know if you have cam, head work Etc done? I bet is tracks will still in force whatever they want just as they do now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gr8lover]

I am suprised they came up with such a loosey goosy rule.... i am sure they will clarify for sure.... just seems to hard to enforce like others are saying... but i would bet that most tracks will not allow g8's to go into the 10'swithout a rollbar.... no way..... they know they are 'altered"...... but we will see....

[Devilish34]

Funny man. So how are they going to know if you have cam, head work Etc done? I bet is tracks will still in force whatever they want just as they do now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What funny is stretching a words meaning.
Really a cam? Better be a tiny cam for them not to notice... And a G8,5.0,Charger,Challenger,Civic ect ect running faster than 11.5 will be obvious that the car has been altered.. This rule is for cars like the ZR1, GTR, Z06, and a few others that can run low 11 to high 10s from the factory not for someone who mods there late model car ... .. With that being said tracks will enforce what they want just as they always have

[Daniel Linnett]

What funny is stretching a words meaning.
Really a cam? Better be a tiny cam for them not to notice... And a G8,5.0,Charger,Challenger,Civic ect ect running faster than 11.5 will be obvious that the car has been altered.. This rule is for cars like the ZR1, GTR, Z06, and a few others that can run low 11 to high 10s from the factory not for someone who mods there late model car ... .. With that being said tracks will enforce what they want just as they always have

Yup


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Devilish34]

I am suprised they came up with such a loosey goosy rule.... i am sure they will clarify for sure.... just seems to hard to enforce like others are saying... but i would bet that most tracks will not allow g8's to go into the 10'swithout a rollbar.... no way..... they know they are 'altered"...... but we will see....

I see strict tracks enforcing it to the letter which is no changes to the car..

[gr8lover]

Hmmm so we are altered though right? Or does it mean as long as the body is factory and not changed or pulled off safety equip we can run 10.00? If so that will get alot more guys to mod further. I will not cage my car until I am forced to. For my safety if I hit 145 in 1/4 I'll cage her.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would cage anything over 135mph.... when you do that its getting scary.... and no matter what 135mph is the limit for all sanctions.... not sure how you guys get away with it out where your at.... someday they will have to follow the rules.... i am just suprised they let you guys run that damn fast..... there really is somehting to be said about the reason why they require it... hate to see someone have something happen at those kinds of speeds....

[youngrushhour]

Yeah, this really doesn't apply to us at all. Unfortunate, but hopefully the NHRA expands the rule a bit.

[wnt2gofst]

I would cage anything over 135mph.... when you do that its getting scary.... and no matter what 135mph is the limit for all sanctions.... not sure how you guys get away with it out where your at.... someday they will have to follow the rules.... i am just suprised they let you guys run that damn fast..... there really is somehting to be said about the reason why they require it... hate to see someone have something happen at those kinds of speeds....

I am surprised they let him run. J have been booted off three tracks for running 10.3-10.6. All in first or second pass.

Buddy will not launch his UGR Lambo so runs low 11's but traps 150-160 depending on boost he has set. He gets booted every time for no chute or bar also.

from the famous tapatalk.

[Bob the Noob]

*Happy dance* Looks like I might get more use out of my helmet... :)

[GeorgeInNePa]

What funny is stretching a words meaning.
Really a cam? Better be a tiny cam for them not to notice... And a G8,5.0,Charger,Challenger,Civic ect ect running faster than 11.5 will be obvious that the car has been altered.. This rule is for cars like the ZR1, GTR, Z06, and a few others that can run low 11 to high 10s from the factory not for someone who mods there late model car ... .. With that being said tracks will enforce what they want just as they always have

The main problem is, there is precedent in the rulebook for the word "unaltered" to mean OEM firewall and floorboard.

They managed to be as unclear as possible when they wrote this rule.

Also, what safety differences are there between a ZR1, a ZO6, and a base C6?

[Greg@PacePerformance]

The main problem is, there is precedent in the rulebook for the word "unaltered" to mean OEM firewall and floorboard.

They managed to be as unclear as possible when they wrote this rule.

Also, what safety differences are there between a ZR1, a ZO6, and a base C6?

Also what stops someone with a 2005 C6 to say it is a 2008. They are almost identical. Is the tech guy going to decode every vin on every car that the owners says is 2008 or newer?

[gr8lover]

This will be a tough one for the tracks... but as you guys say,,,.. each track will come up with their own intrepretation and depending if he likes your shirt or if your friends with him, or whatever, they can pick and choose..... hell if you had a c6, just put a ZR1 badge on it and the tech guy probably would have no idea anyway.... obviously depending on who he is... where I go I think they use the homeless to run the track.... .. I think what they meant to do and their goal is right on and good for the sport...but just needs a bit of massaging to get it to work consistently... should be interesting on how they handle it... but this will undoubtedly leave more options open to the track and i would bet somedays you will be able to run and others you wont... just depending on the "how they feel that day"....

[Devilish34]

The main problem is, there is precedent in the rulebook for the word "unaltered" to mean OEM firewall and floorboard.

They managed to be as unclear as possible when they wrote this rule.

Also, what safety differences are there between a ZR1, a ZO6, and a base C6?

No need to try and redefine a word to fit ones wishes.. ... I dont understand your question of safety differences as far as I know none .. More so one is more capable than the other of running below 11.5 in stock form..

A member on Corvette Forum contacted his local track and asked them what the new rule meant.. According to the person he spoke with unaltered means just that..


I just got off the phone with an authority (local dragstrip owner who attended a NHRA tech symposium last week) and have the definitive answer of the roll bar rule.

The term "unaltered" means absolutely zero changes from the way the car came from the factory, according to the lawyers who wrote the rule. Unfortunately, the lawyers wrote it for liability reasons and left the NHRA to define the limitations allowed.

However, when the top NHRA tech officials at the Div 7 tech session were questioned on the definition by dragstrip operators, they didn't have an answer.

Since the rule is in the book and NHRA can't define the specifics, it's left to the track operator's discretion and interpretation. So if you show up with tinted windows on your brand new ZR1 and the tech guy says you need a rollbar, then you don't get to play. On the other hand, if the tech guy says it's OK to run low 10's with your stripped '90 CRX with NOS and no rollbar, then why worry about the new rule.

The bottom line is that the rule tends to give strip operators a little more leeway and hints at permission to bend the rules as they see fit.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1582592981-post1.html

[Devilish34]

Also what stops someone with a 2005 C6 to say it is a 2008. They are almost identical. Is the tech guy going to decode every vin on every car that the owners says is 2008 or newer?

That easy just open the door and look at the sticker? registration , insurance card? Also an 05 has a different steering wheel.. Anyone here who goes to tracks that have always enforced the 11.5 rule should expect them to rule it as the lawyer wrote it..

[Steve GT]

Would be awesome if my car was actually fast.

[GeorgeInNePa]

No need to try and redefine a word to fit ones wishes.. ... I dont understand your question of safety differences as far as I know none .. More so one is more capable than the other of running below 11.5 in stock form..

A member on Corvette Forum contacted his local track and asked them what the new rule meant.. According to the person he spoke with unaltered means just that..



http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1582592981-post1.html

You keep telling us what the dictionary definition is for the word "unaltered". We're telling you that the way it has been used in the NHRA rulebook is different than Merriam-Webster.

Also, if there are no differences in the safety aspect between a ZR1 and a quickened up base C6, then why is there a problem?

I know why, it's because Glendora is populated by assclowns...

[Devilish34]

You keep telling us what the dictionary definition is for the word "unaltered". We're telling you that the way it has been used in the NHRA rulebook is different than Merriam-Webster.

Also, if there are no differences in the safety aspect between a ZR1 and a quickened up base C6, then why is there a problem?

I know why, it's because Glendora is populated by assclowns...

Do we need to speculate on what OEM means? or do we just ignore that part of the new rule

[Bob the Noob]

Darn... I was getting all excited but realized there's still the 5 pt harness, valve stems, approved flywheel and other stuff that's required.

[Steve GT]

Do we need to speculate on what OEM means? or do we just ignore that part of the new rule

Sounds to me like it gives each track owner the right to make their own interpretation of the rule and enforce as they see fit.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Do we need to speculate on what OEM means? or do we just ignore that part of the new rule

Perhaps they should have had the Tech Director and not a lawyer write the rule.

Then there might not need to be any speculation. Unless they wanted it to be vague.

[Shiftless]

C6 Has a removable roof...not a hardtop...rule doesnt apply.

[GeorgeInNePa]

C6 Has a removable roof...not a hardtop...rule doesnt apply.

That's a good point.

[youngrushhour]

Tires will be the only super hard thing to judge. Can't really enforce the rule against DRs of they are on stock rims. And DRa also make a car like a Z06 or ZR1 safer.

Frankly, this has been an unwritten rule at most tracks for years. If the car is stock, you don't need a bar. This is just the NHRA finally codifying that rule in the rule book.

[Devilish34]

Sounds to me like it gives each track owner the right to make their own interpretation of the rule and enforce as they see fit.

That happens already... You can go to Capitol Raceway run 9s@140 all day with out the proper safety equipment without getting the boot.. Try that at Cecil, MIR, Atco, Maple Grove, E-town and you'll get the boot along with an ear full...

[gr8lover]

Darn... I was getting all excited but realized there's still the 5 pt harness, valve stems, approved flywheel and other stuff that's required.

Bob,

No need to get excited.... Milan or Lapeer will not let you run below 11.5... simple as that.... need to run on NO ET nights.... Unaltered means unalerted.... and a stock unaltered G8 does not havea maggie on it.. simple as that... other tracks may allow it.. but not near us...

[Devilish34]

I contacted Jim Halsey from Cecil about the rule change..



Jim,

My understanding of this rule is 2008 and newer unaltered(no modifications ) is allowed to run without a bar up to 9.99 135mph... Is this correct? If so does this allow an owner of the car to use drag radials/slicks or do they need to be on stock or equivalent tire?

Thank You

John

We don't have the specific details yet, but what we are being told is must be 100% stock. No chips, programmers etc.

Tune only vehicles will be hard to catch unless it's a GTR.. Those cars can be pushed pretty hard with the right tune

[G8-4-Speed]

The cage is a chassis requirement. It has nothing to do with what motor or transmission is in it. If you put a turbo'd 4 cylinder motor in and got to run 10.50's in your G8, it has nothing to do with the chassis safety. Like it has been said, tracks can makeup what the rules mean and kick you out if they want....
UN-Altered refers to the chassis since it is a cage rule. Have had plenty a of chassis inspected, they generally only care about the drivers compartment. The rear end held can be in 5/16 bolts with no nuts and the engine held down with a walmart ratchet strap and the chassis can still pass a 25.5 inspection but that doesn't mean there isn't another rule that you aren't breaking. Since our cars have "crush-zones", they may be a little more picky in front of the firewall. If you back-half the car, the rule does apply anymore. They can still enforce drive shaft loops, SFI balancers, wheel studs, Helmets, ect.

[Devilish34]

So you are saying the track owner I asked is wrong about the new rule?

[G8-4-Speed]

It is his track and his insurance. Being the owner and liable, he can err to the caution side if he doesn't understand or interperet it correctly. A factory car now with all the airbags, crush zones, collapsible steering columns, reinforced door bars, dash bars, ect. are just as safe or safer than a gutted Nova with a 8 or 10 point cage.

[Devilish34]

Whats not to understand? He said they are being told it must be 100% stock no programmers ect. I would assume the details lacking are fire jacket, 5 point harness and maybe tires .. Jim is a seasoned pro mod driver not just a track owner so I think he understands the rules and what he is told by the NHRA pretty well. There are already tracks that ignore the rules as is so I'm sure this makes no matter to those places

[G8-4-Speed]

No, that isn't the rule. That is just how someone chose to interpet it and explain it. A safety chassis rule should have nothing to do with the power or engine modifications. What does the mods to engine have to do with chassis requirement? I am not aruguing with you directly, just the principle of the rule since it is being interprited to what someone wants a word to mean. Engine rules are in another section, so why would someone try to make engine rules out of a chassis rule. To me that is just someone being a prick to say that a chassis rule means engine also. If that was the case, they should add the rule to the engine section also. All the cage requirements are based on ET/MPH and body type. It shouldn't have anything to do whether someone uses 4 cylinders or 12 to get there. Engines got there own safety rules and safety requiremnts.

NHRA DRAGS: STREET LEGAL STYLE PRESENTED BY AAA (Page xiv) (5th paragraph)

Additionally Requirements and specifications for Street Legal are the same
as those for the Summit Racing Series with the following exception: Unaltered
2008 OEM model year and newer production cars running slower than 9.99 and 135
mph do not have to meet the requirements and specifications for the Summit
Racing Series except for the following: Convertibles and T-tops must meet Summit
Racing Series Roll Bar and Roll Cage requirements, All drivers must meet the
Summit Racing Series Helmet and Protective Clothing requirements.”

This amendment is in fact a huge boom to the enthusiast community that’s been driven
away from organized racing at NHRA member tracks in the past due to the costs of
making their vehicles legal to compete. Cars like the 2013 GT500 Mustang and the
Corvette ZR1 are capable of surpassing the 11.50 mark right off the showroom
floor. We’ve yet to conclude the exact meaning behind the wording “unaltered” in
the text and whether that refers to the vehicle frame or the existence of power
adders and the like.

[locrzn#92]

I think Rick is correct, I used to run NHRA back in the 80's and the roll cage/chassis rules didn't have anything to do with the engine package. My car would run 9.70's but I ran Super Gas which was 9.90 class, all the motor combos in that class were totally different, but we all had the same chassis/cage requirements during the inspections at the track. If the track owner looks at the rules and determines that he doesn't want to follow that rule I'm not sure what you can do about it, I guess go to a different track that does follow the NHRA rule book. I think it would benefit that track to follow the rules, he'll get more participants roll in the gates and that more money in his pocket to run the track. I guess I'm surprised that they didn't go back to 2005, include all the c6's, mustangs, dodges and chryslers.

[Devilish34]

So the NHRA tells track owners 100% stock and you say the NHRA doesnt know how to interpret it and explain it? I'll take what track owners and the NHRA tell them over internet theories.. If I go to a legitimate track that has always enforced the rules and they start letting modded gutted 08 and newer cars run low 10s @134 I'll be shocked

[TooManyHobbies]

A factory car now with all the airbags, crush zones, collapsible steering columns, reinforced door bars, dash bars, ect. are just as safe or safer than a gutted Nova with a 8 or 10 point cage.

+10,000

[youngrushhour]

Since this rule was specifically made to allow for Z06s, ZR1s, GT500s, etc. to run without a bar -- I would be willing to bet that unaltered means bone stock.

[shane]

This rule will kind of a cluster for the first year.

[GeorgeInNePa]

So the NHRA tells track owners 100% stock and you say the NHRA doesnt know how to interpret it and explain it? I'll take what track owners and the NHRA tell them over internet theories.. If I go to a legitimate track that has always enforced the rules and they start letting modded gutted 08 and newer cars run low 10s @134 I'll be shocked
No, we're saying that they made this harder than it has to be.


Those of us familiar with the rulebook, heard about this rule or read this rule and said to ourselves, "that's fucked up". "Unaltered" has always referred to the chassis.

Here's something to ponder, why didn't they say, "all components must remain OEM stock for model year claimed/titled"?

[wreckwriter]

I think Rick's interpretation is probably right.

[Fatdaddy]

Why argue over this? Most of us know that the NHRA has not always been sensible when it comes to rule making. Anyone who has ever raced a class car knows that many OEM and OEM replacement parts cannot withstand the rigors of regular hard racing. Particularly chassis and driveline components. Who in their right mind wouldn't replace parts that break with stronger, better or faster stuff?

The competitors have always had to bear the burden of refining the rules. Same thing will happen here. Gradually we will sneak up on what must remain OEM, what must be changed and what is left to racer discretion.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Why argue over this? ***snip.


Are you new here?


;)

[Devilish34]

No, we're saying that they made this harder than it has to be.


Those of us familiar with the rulebook, heard about this rule or read this rule and said to ourselves, "that's fucked up". "Unaltered" has always referred to the chassis.

Here's something to ponder, why didn't they say, "all components must remain OEM stock for model year claimed/titled"?

I know and agree it is loosely written .... I've read here so far is theories based on the use of the word "unaltered" in the rule book.. Who here besides myself has contacted their local track official/owner for clarification ? If this rule refers to just the chassis whats to stop someone from removing air bags or other features that supposedly make the 08 and newer car safer than an 07 and earlier.

[Devilish34]

Are you new here?


;)

he must be lol...

[GeorgeInNePa]

I know and agree it is loosely written .... I've read here so far is theories based on the use of the word "unaltered" in the rule book.. Who here besides myself has contacted their local track official/owner for clarification ? If this rule refers to just the chassis whats to stop someone from removing air bags or other features that supposedly make the 08 and newer car safer than an 07 and earlier.

Absolutely nothing.

How would the Tech Inspector know?

[Devilish34]

Absolutely nothing.

How would the Tech Inspector know?

near impossible .... I have no problem with this rule if it is enforced as I've been told... But if it isn't the NHRA and tracks will be screwed when people start dying..

[Devilish34]

post 157 not saying it is fact

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=532315&highlight=rollbar&page=11

[youngrushhour]

post 157 not saying it is fact

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=532315&highlight=rollbar&page=11

Care to post it? YB isn't opening for me right now.

[Devilish34]

Care to post it? YB isn't opening for me right now.

It's not opening for me either..

[youngrushhour]

Shit. Still down, too.

[Devilish34]

Care to post it? YB isn't opening for me right now.

I personally do not agree with the OEM tire part.. I would and I am sure most tracks would rather these cars be on a DR..


A few minutes ago, I had the NHRA call me about some chassis certs so I asked him about this new rule. They said, the car has to be on OEM tires and be 100% stock. They said, if a driver is good enough drive to get a new GT500 or ZL1 into the low 11's or high 10's, we are not worried about them crashing. The people that we worry about are the drivers of new GT500's and Corvette's than run 14's fishtailing all over the place. There isn't any rule that we can think of that won't keep dumb people from hurting themselves.

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10351437&postcount=157

[youngrushhour]

They really can't dictate OEM tire or not because technically that would be the first set of tires you get from the factory if they want to be really specific.

I am willing to bet most tracks would allow for DRs. No reason not to.

[youngrushhour]

Seems like the correct way to read the rule is the one that makes the most sense. This rule was never intended to let 10 second runs on heavily modified cars go uncaged.

[Devilish34]

Seems like the correct way to read the rule is the one that makes the most sense. This rule was never intended to let 10 second runs on heavily modified cars go uncaged.

Agreed

[youngrushhour]

Agreed

Regardless of the wording, I am surprised that anyone thought that the NHRA, an organization hell-bent on safety, would have intended that rule to apply to heavily modified cars.

[desertg8]

I live in Tucson. But I race alot in Chandler, AZ at the nhra "Firebird Raceway" Here is what Mr. Sundstrom, the track manager, wrote me regarding modifications, etc.

"He starts by saying there are new rules. But as far as modifications the rule states that no modifications are allowed, the vehicle must be stock. This is a huge grey area because we have no way of controlling (or checking for) programmers, etc, with that being said, we will not allow any vehicle to fall under these new guidelines in which we can visually see ANY type of modification whether it be safety or performance related."

So I would say once they pop my hood and see a cold air intake and headers I will get 11.5 written on my window. Also a driveshaft safety loop which I added would make my car an 11.5 car. I am not so sure about drag radials. Tracks will not want to take a chance. Once the first injury or death occurs the lawsuits will be coming if they let other than a stock car down the track under 11.5 with no six point cage.

[youngrushhour]

Exactly. That's the only thing that makes sense. No way would the NHRA want a bunch of modded cars running 10s with no cage. You'd have every fucking moron with a gutted piece fo shit Civic out the running 10s and oiling down the track with zero safety equipment. This is simply meant to help the guys who buy cars that can run in the low 11s bone stock be able to run at a track without having to 1) bar the car or 2) only make a 3/4 track run.

[DRUGS]

you still have the G8?
Exactly. That's the only thing that makes sense. No way would the NHRA want a bunch of modded cars running 10s with no cage. You'd have every fucking moron with a gutted piece fo shit Civic out the running 10s and oiling down the track with zero safety equipment. This is simply meant to help the guys who buy cars that can run in the low 11s bone stock be able to run at a track without having to 1) bar the car or 2) only make a 3/4 track run.

[-Ray-]

The 11.5 rule has nothing to do with a DS loop. You have to have one if you are running slicks or drag radials.
Of course you can take with a grain if salt like all my other posts. Lol

[desertg8]

The 11.5 rule has nothing to do with a DS loop. You have to have one if you are running slicks or drag radials.
Of course you can take with a grain if salt like all my other posts. Lol


Actually with drag radials which are dot legal you do not have to run a safety loop per nhra rules if going 11.5 or slower. It would say dot on the side of the drag radial. With slicks you need to run one and I believe the et is actually quite a bit higher than that when you need to use them. At least that is what my track told me.

But getting back to the original topic here I believe you need to be stock as in show room floor stock or close to that for running quicker than 11.5.

Also the track manager wrote me back telling me even if stock and you are running faster than 11.5 on dot drag radials you had better have a drive shaft safety loop. He wants all safety adhearances complied with and will kick off a car running quicker than 11.5 without one. So I would think the driveshaft safety loop is directly related to running quicker than 11.5. (complying with safety rules) helmet, fire suit, driveshaft safety loop , etc.

[TooManyHobbies]

Exactly. That's the only thing that makes sense. No way would the NHRA want a bunch of modded cars running 10s with no cage. You'd have every fucking moron with a gutted piece fo shit Civic out the running 10s and oiling down the track with zero safety equipment. This is simply meant to help the guys who buy cars that can run in the low 11s bone stock be able to run at a track without having to 1) bar the car or 2) only make a 3/4 track run.

Not going to find to many piece of shit Civics that are 2008 or newer. The POS are all older.

[youngrushhour]

Not going to find to many piece of shit Civics that are 2008 or newer. The POS are all older.

Any gutted, bare metal FWD car like that is a piece of shit to me.

I've seen quite a few newer, gutted Civics, too. It's almost like they patina them up before going to the track.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Seems like the correct way to read the rule is the one that makes the most sense. This rule was never intended to let 10 second runs on heavily modified cars go uncaged.

Please describe the safety differences between a stock 2013 GT500 on drag tires and a full bolt-on 2013 GT on drag tires, if both cars are running 11.0s.

[GeorgeInNePa]

I live in Tucson. But I race alot in Chandler, AZ at the nhra "Firebird Raceway" Here is what Mr. Sundstrom, the track manager, wrote me regarding modifications, etc.

"He starts by saying there are new rules. But as far as modifications the rule states that no modifications are allowed, the vehicle must be stock. This is a huge grey area because we have no way of controlling (or checking for) programmers, etc, with that being said, we will not allow any vehicle to fall under these new guidelines in which we can visually see ANY type of modification whether it be safety or performance related."

So I would say once they pop my hood and see a cold air intake and headers I will get 11.5 written on my window. Also a driveshaft safety loop which I added would make my car an 11.5 car. I am not so sure about drag radials. Tracks will not want to take a chance. Once the first injury or death occurs the lawsuits will be coming if they let other than a stock car down the track under 11.5 with no six point cage.

Complete and total retardation.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Actually with drag radials which are dot legal you do not have to run a safety loop per nhra rules if going 11.5 or slower. It would say dot on the side of the drag radial. With slicks you need to run one and I believe the et is actually quite a bit higher than that when you need to use them. At least that is what my track told me.

But getting back to the original topic here I believe you need to be stock as in show room floor stock or close to that for running quicker than 11.5.

Also the track manager wrote me back telling me even if stock and you are running faster than 11.5 on dot drag radials you had better have a drive shaft safety loop. He wants all safety adhearances complied with and will kick off a car running quicker than 11.5 without one. So I would think the driveshaft safety loop is directly related to running quicker than 11.5. (complying with safety rules) helmet, fire suit, driveshaft safety loop , etc.

Is he also checking for SFI certs on your balancer, flexplate, scatter-shield, and trans blanket? Hope he's looking for SFI jackets, too.

[Fatdaddy]

Is he also checking for SFI certs on your balancer, flexplate, scatter-shield, and trans blanket? Hope he's looking for SFI jackets, too.

And so we go down the rules rabbit hole. Like I said, refinement of the rule will fall on the racers.

Something like this:
You get booted from track 'A' for some rules infraction. The same infraction doesn't cause any problems for another competitor. You have no problems at track 'B'. You protest to the NHRA. It continues to happen until somebody in "contention" has it happen. Then protests, petitions, negotiations, clarifications and finally rules modifications. You can ask me how I know but I may not tell you.

[Devilish34]

Please describe the safety differences between a stock 2013 GT500 on drag tires and a full bolt-on 2013 GT on drag tires, if both cars are running 11.0s.

None except one is modified and one is as is from Ford.. This rule was written for factory cars that can run below 11.5 as it came of the factory line.

[desertg8]

Is he also checking for SFI certs on your balancer, flexplate, scatter-shield, and trans blanket? Hope he's looking for SFI jackets, too.

He should. Safety first.

I have never thought of our track manager at the internationally known Firebird Raceway to be of that word you reiterated. Actually I think it is less than smart to let any car down the track quicker than 11.5 without a six point cage since there is really no difference between a stock car running quicker than 11.5 and one that is modified. I would say the nhra is the one not being too smart on this issue.

[GeorgeInNePa]

None except one is modified and one is as is from Ford.. This rule was written for factory cars that can run below 11.5 as it came of the factory line.

Then it is ridiculous.

[Devilish34]

Then it is ridiculous.

Meh it is what it is...They have to draw a line somewhere.. And who knows how it will change as people ask for clarification ..

[youngrushhour]

Then it is ridiculous.

How so? It was written to address what was already an unwritten rule at most tracks: Stock cars running under 11.5 do not need a bar. Even E-Town allowed for ZR-1s and Z06s to run without a bar if they were hitting under 11.5. That is an unwritten rule across the country, even. Frankly, I thought that was ALREADY a rule with how many tracks actually allow it. The NHRA has been pushed to allow that for years. A stock car is going to be inherently safer than a modified car -- at least to insurance adjusters and the like that the tracks and the NHRA need to actually pay attention to.

Even if we can't benefit from this rule, it is the proper way to go about it. Am I disappointed that it doesn't apply to aftermarket modified cars? Absolutely. But it is ridiculous that stock cars were not allowed to run under 11.5 if they came that way from the factory without a bar. And like I said, that type of rule has already been allowed for across the country even if it was unwritten.

No one has any clue how safely an aftermarket car is modified. No one. Why do you think that they have done this type of rule? They don't want some horribly built 2008+ shitbox running down the track with Pepe and his boys just finishing putting on a giant turbo and slicks and a gutted car with no airbags. If you allow for modified cars, then you allow for that. Where do you draw the line, then? How do you define what would be an acceptable interior? How do you define what would be acceptable modifications? Do we have limits for a cam grind? The NHRA is doing the right thing here. Just because YOUR car may be safely modified does not mean some other idiot's is. And the last thing you need to have happen is for that idiot to go across the center line, get himself killed, and have his shittily built car get someone else injured.

[youngrushhour]

And so we go down the rules rabbit hole. Like I said, refinement of the rule will fall on the racers.

Something like this:
You get booted from track 'A' for some rules infraction. The same infraction doesn't cause any problems for another competitor. You have no problems at track 'B'. You protest to the NHRA. It continues to happen until somebody in "contention" has it happen. Then protests, petitions, negotiations, clarifications and finally rules modifications. You can ask me how I know but I may not tell you.

That's how it has been forever, anyway. Why would it change? Some tracks allow more leniency than others.

[GeorgeInNePa]

How so? Have you read my other posts? My answer is there.
It was written to address what was already an unwritten rule at most tracks: Stock cars running under 11.5 do not need a bar. Even E-Town allowed for ZR-1s and Z06s to run without a bar if they were hitting under 11.5. That is an unwritten rule across the country, even. Frankly, I thought that was ALREADY a rule with how many tracks actually allow it. The NHRA has been pushed to allow that for years. A stock car is going to be inherently safer than a modified car -- at least to insurance adjusters and the like that the tracks and the NHRA need to actually pay attention to. Please explain the safety differences between a stock 2013 GT500 on drag tires and a modded 2013 GT on drag tires, if both are running 11.0s and both are using all airbags, belts, etc.


Even if we can't benefit from this rule, it is the proper way to go about it. Am I disappointed that it doesn't apply to aftermarket modified cars? Absolutely. But it is ridiculous that stock cars were not allowed to run under 11.5 if they came that way from the factory without a bar. And like I said, that type of rule has already been allowed for across the country even if it was unwritten. Not really. I believe you'll find many posts about regular, non-shop owning guys, getting asked to leave for running sub 11.50.


No one has any clue how safely an aftermarket car is modified. No one. Why do you think that they have done this type of rule? They don't want some horribly built 2008+ shitbox running down the track with Pepe and his boys just finishing putting on a giant turbo and slicks and a gutted car with no airbags. If you allow for modified cars, then you allow for that. Where do you draw the line, then? How do you define what would be an acceptable interior? How do you define what would be acceptable modifications? Do we have limits for a cam grind? The NHRA is doing the right thing here. Just because YOUR car may be safely modified does not mean some other idiot's is. And the last thing you need to have happen is for that idiot to go across the center line, get himself killed, and have his shittily built car get someone else injured. Have you ever read the entire rulebook?

[youngrushhour]

Have you read my other posts? My answer is there. Please explain the safety differences between a stock 2013 GT500 on drag tires and a modded 2013 GT on drag tires, if both are running 11.0s and both are using all airbags, belts, etc.

How can you not get this? One is stock and safe from the factory. The other car is not stock and may have been shoddily built. You can hide such things as removed air bags, also. Unless you now want tracks to test airbags prior to every run. Aftermarket mods always have the potential to be more dangerous than a factory tested, and factory built car. This is not rocket science and is plainly logical.


Not really. I believe you'll find many posts about regular, non-shop owning guys, getting asked to leave for running sub 11.50.

I never said at all tracks, did I? Or are you now re-writing what I said? I said many tracks.


Have you ever read the entire rulebook?

Of course I have. You want an expansive new rule without taking into account a number of different possible safety aspects. This expansive new rule would never jive with the insurance that these tracks all have to have.

Again, it's not great for any of us and I'd love to be running below 11.5 without a bar. But the logic is sound and it makes sense if you actually think about it for a few minutes instead of just getting angry.