Check Out This New Front Strut Brace

[DRCUSTOMPARTS]

Here is some pics of the front strut brace and mounting brackets that I made for my car. It installs without drilling any holes and it attaches very securely to the existing holes in the strut towers. I just finished it and I haven't tried it out yet, so I'll let you know how well it works once I put it to the test. If there is enough interest I plan to sell them on my website, and I'd like to know what everyone thinks about it.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a375/DonRome/P1030117.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a375/DonRome/P1030118.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a375/DonRome/P1030119.jpg

[99-LS1-SS]

From the pictures it looks like it is hitting the engine cover.

[todds87ss]

Is that one bolt on each side for support?

[DRCUSTOMPARTS]

It's mounted by one bolt on each side and it's not hitting the engine cover. I just woke up so I'll give her a test drive after I down some coffee. There is another bolt hole on the back side of each strut tower, so I can utilize that if necessary.

['02 ws6]

Looks pretty good for a demo.

[shaunfin24]

I like..would u be able to offer these in multi colors like say i wanted a red one or blue etc

[99-LS1-SS]

Please don't openly post pricing without vendor status.

[DRCUSTOMPARTS]

I can paint it any color you want. I'll be selling them on my website so I'll add a painting option. When I become a vendor I'll be able to post a price.

I tested the bar today and there's definitely an improvement in the corners, and the steering is more responsive too. It give the car a more solid feeling in the front end. Now I have to see if I can make one for the rear.

[shaunfin24]

can you pm a price or give me the link to you website

[DRCUSTOMPARTS]

I'm working with the forum administration on becoming a vendor, and I can't sell any products here until I do.

[GRRRR8]

That would be correct. Pedders and BMR both sell similiar products and they have either sponsored the site or paid to be here. There are other small companies like yourself that have done the same as well. Dont make me or this site out to be the bad guy.

[Mike@snl[OLD]]

No bashing the product by any means here but from an engineering standpoint using only one bolt offers no structural rigidity at all.

[MtbDoc]

No bashing the product by any means here but from an engineering standpoint using only one bolt offers no structural rigidity at all.

Yep...

[KaiserM715]

You will get a lot of bending at the bolt (the mounting lug will try and pry up away from the strut tower), which is not good for the bolt (bolts are intended to be loaded in tension and / or shear) or the sheet metal it is attached to. Both will see a lot of fatigue, but the sheet metal on the tower is the weak link.

[DRCUSTOMPARTS]

Evidently you're wrong Kaiser, there's a flanged spacer that goes between the bolt and the metal in the hole to support the side load. I don't know why you are calling the metal on the strut towers sheet metal, it's MUCH THICKER than that. I have been working with metal for 30+ years so I do know a lot more than you all think. I pulled off what you guys thought was impossible, so now you are needlessly bashing my product.

[GRRRR8]

DR, no bashing, I think they are questioning. You have been on sites awhile and you know this is the norm. Examples: Pedders, Vararam, DOD cams, shorty headers, to name a few.

[r33pwrd]

I think it looks good! IMO a strut brace is rreally not needed on MY car but I will get one at some poing because they look cool :)

[DRCUSTOMPARTS]

Those were all statements not questions.....

[GRRRR8]

Those were all statements not questions.....

Statements, questions, opinions are all the same on the web.

[-Ray-]

Why don't you put up a poll and ask people how they really feel about it?

[KaiserM715]

Evidently you're wrong Kaiser, there's a flanged spacer that goes between the bolt and the metal in the hole to support the side load. I don't know why you are calling the metal on the strut towers sheet metal, it's MUCH THICKER than that. I have been working with metal for 30+ years so I do know a lot more than you all think. I pulled off what you guys thought was impossible, so now you are needlessly bashing my product.

I would still classify the material in that area as sheet metal (which includes material up to a little over 3/16"). There are two sheet metal stampings sandwiched together. There is nothing that I said that was incorrect about how that joint is loaded. The addition of a second bolt would go a long way in stiffening up that joint, creating a better system overall.

That being said, the craftsmanship on the brace looks great.


DR, no bashing, I think they are questioning.

Exactly. If I was bashing, I would have worded my initial response entirely different. :)

[DRCUSTOMPARTS]

Most people's visual conception of sheet metal is thin metal that can be cut with hand shears, so that was a poor choice of words. You are correct that it can be up to 3/16 thick, but I'm sure most people don't realize that. I agree that one bolt isn't as strong as 2 or 3, but seeing that I can feel a difference in structural stiffness of the car, it must be strong enough for this application. I have not put the strut bar for sale on my website, so it's still in the testing/developement stage.

I have been selling a similiar design for the W-Body cars for the past 5 years, and I have yet to have anyone say they didn't feel an improvement after the strut bar & mounting brackets were installed. I do utilize 2 bolts on each tower to attach the brackets for those cars, and I will try to do the same with the G8 application to see if there's an improvement. I do appreciate any positive or negitive comments, but it seem's like Kaiser's 2nd post was the only one that was done so in a constructive fashion.

[Mike@snl[OLD]]

I am not bashing your product. I think the craftmanship is superb. That is the first thing I noticed. However again from an engineering standpoint there is virtually no structural rigidity added with this brace. Adding a second connection point would help tremendously. A third would be preferred.

[DRCUSTOMPARTS]

Mike if one bolt does absolutely nothing, then why are struts and shocks mounted the same way, with one nut on the end of a threaded shaft? They have the weight of the whole car going up & down over every bump, while they are trying to dampen the tremendous force of the spring. I guarantee that each of those bolts is not moving, they would break before they would move, and that won't ever happen. I do agree that 2 or 3 bolts would be stronger than one, but you can't truely say that one does nothing at all. Here's what you're saying in mathematical form, and multiplying by 2 or 3 bolts still equals zero.

Zero X 2 = Zero
Zero X 3 = Zero

I guess I have over 500 satisfied W-Body owners that "think" my strut bars make their car handle better and react more responsively. And I just sold 3 more sets tonite......

[Rob@WretchedMS]

I have to agree with Mike, but if someone decides to buy your brace, so be it. But I don't see how it will do a whole lot.

[-Ray-]

Mike if one bolt does absolutely nothing, then why are struts and shocks mounted the same way, with one nut on the end of a threaded shaft? They have the weight of the whole car going up & down over every bump, while they are trying to dampen the tremendous force of the spring. I guarantee that each of those bolts is not moving, they would break before they would move, and that won't ever happen. I do agree that 2 or 3 bolts would be stronger than one, but you can't truely say that one does nothing at all. Here's what you're saying in mathematical form, and multiplying by 2 or 3 bolts still equals zero.

Zero X 2 = Zero
Zero X 3 = Zero

I guess I have over 500 satisfied W-Body owners that "think" my strut bars make their car handle better and react more responsively. And I just sold 3 more sets tonite......

Shocks and struts aren't mounted to sheet metal. However, since I'm a mod and have a Pedder's strut tower brace on my car, I'll have to stay out of this thread from here on out.
I still think you need a poll though.

[r33pwrd]

guys this one bolt design is no different that the hundreds out there that ius a hinge point... like this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Strut_bar2.JPG

and its the same as a pedders....

[GRRRR8]

I have tried to remain silent, but it is impossible at this point. 1. A true strut tower brace will align directly between the strut towers, not in front of it. 2. If its going to do any good at all it should be tied into the firewall for reinforcement and reduced flex. Most factory strut bars are to reduce strut tower sag and help with flex. Everything that I see available right now is 70% look, 30% function. I am not bashing, I am not saying anything other then my experience on 100s of Mustangs and the differences seen and felt with the various styles. Almost all that were towards the front of the strut towers also tied into the firewall, all the way back to the 65 Shelby.

[-Ray-]

guys this one bolt design is no different that the hundreds out there that ius a hinge point... like this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Strut_bar2.JPG

and its the same as a pedders....

The attachment is clearly at least a 2 bolt design. The G8 weighs significantly more than the car pictured also.

[r33pwrd]

The attachment is clearly at least a 2 bolt design. The G8 weighs significantly more than the car pictured also.

Yes to the shock tower but it only is connected with 1 pivot point per side (to the cros bar)... Same end result.

Im not saying this is OK im just saying that his design is no different than the pedders style. The only true 2 point attachment is the BMR style one.

[Rob@WretchedMS]

It's very different than the Pedders unit, the Pedders part uses 3 mounting bolts, as well as spacers that help to secure it from any chance of moving. We do not rely on on bolt through sheet metal, we have 3 bolts, and 2 of them are supported laterally with the spacers.

The Pedders bar is not going to flex, and it has a lot of engineering behind it's design, unlike the one i see here.

Not bashing, i'm sure that plenty of people are happy with his products, but it's just not very well thought out

[r33pwrd]

It's very different than the Pedders unit, the Pedders part uses 3 mounting bolts, as well as spacers that help to secure it from any chance of moving. We do not rely on on bolt through sheet metal, we have 3 bolts, and 2 of them are supported laterally with the spacers.

The Pedders bar is not going to flex, and it has a lot of engineering behind it's design, unlike the one i see here.

Not bashing, i'm sure that plenty of people are happy with his products, but it's just not very well thought out

My point is your single bolt that connects from the cross bar to your mounting plate...

[KaiserM715]

Mike if one bolt does absolutely nothing, then why are struts and shocks mounted the same way, with one nut on the end of a threaded shaft? They have the weight of the whole car going up & down over every bump, while they are trying to dampen the tremendous force of the spring. I guarantee that each of those bolts is not moving, they would break before they would move, and that won't ever happen. I do agree that 2 or 3 bolts would be stronger than one, but you can't truely say that one does nothing at all. Here's what you're saying in mathematical form, and multiplying by 2 or 3 bolts still equals zero.

Zero X 2 = Zero
Zero X 3 = Zero

That is an apples to oranges comparison. The strut and shock bolts are mounted primarily in tension, with rubber bushings to allow for some compliance to take the out bending at the mount. The the single fastener per side in your application would see a lot of bending at the bolt, where as the addition of an additional bolt will change the bolt loading to primarily shear. No one is saying one bolt does nothing, just that it is not the best way to attach and carry the load.


1. A true strut tower brace will align directly between the strut towers, not in front of it. 2. If its going to do any good at all it should be tied into the firewall for reinforcement and reduced flex. Most factory strut bars are to reduce strut tower sag and help with flex.

Charlie makes two good points, especially with the location of the mounts. The best way to carry a load in between two points is a straight line (an approach used by the majority in this application) making it a tension / compression application (again, reducing bending). The addition of supports to the firewall would go a long way to stiffening up the front end.


Yes to the shock tower but it only is connected with 1 pivot point per side (to the cros bar)... Same end result.

The single bolt in the picture you linked is loaded in double shear, as opposed to bending. The black brackets are mounted using two bolts, again, avoiding bolt bending. The single bolt is only an issue due to the type of loading on that one bolt. Every designer should aim to take bending out of a bolted joint

[Mike@snl[OLD]]

I could go into so many engineering points as to why your design does nothing structural for the car. I don't really care how many you sold to W-body cars as a lot of people buy things for cars that "look" good. I never made this personal but I'm afraid you tried to attack me on a personal level. I do not have the time nor want to exude the effort to try and explain to you suspension dynamics 101.

[Rob@WretchedMS]

wow, exude is a really good word, i will have to try to use that one.

[r33pwrd]

what a way to advertise for Pedders... honestly pedders your strut bar look like it was designed for a honda del sol or something...

And the guys that started this thread never said anything bad about your product. So why even start posting here? You just make yourself look bad IMO.

[Mike@snl[OLD]]

what a way to advertise for Pedders... honestly pedders your strut bar look like it was designed for a honda del sol or something...

And the guys that started this thread never said anything bad about your product. So why even start posting here? You just make yourself look bad IMO.

If you're talking me or Rob then you're mistaken. I have no pushed a pedders product in this thread and neither has Rob. Stating a very true fact about a product has nothing to do with advertising. I would like nothing more than to educated everyone on how suspension works and how it can be improved but I'm not in a classroom and don't have a board to write on. Maybe I will start making youtube videos on the subject.

[r33pwrd]

If you're talking me or Rob then you're mistaken. I have no pushed a pedders product in this thread and neither has Rob. Stating a very true fact about a product has nothing to do with advertising. I would like nothing more than to educated everyone on how suspension works and how it can be improved but I'm not in a classroom and don't have a board to write on. Maybe I will start making youtube videos on the subject.

You may understand suspension but I have spent the last 10+ years of my life (prior to my current job) doing fatigue analysis (on metals from Aluminum to Nitinol) and yes I understand how a strut brace should work. My point is simply stay out of his thread you have NOTHING to back up your opinion. I will gladly do a deflection test on the shock towers for you if you like and prove how good or Bad your tower works (I can measure in comparison to the firewall)? I can measure defelction while the car is moving and to as much movement as .00001"....... (FYI I mainly tested medical devices so my measuring sytems are all very accurate and have passed FDA approval over 20 times)

[Mike@snl[OLD]]

You may understand suspension but I have spent the last 10+ years of my life (prior to my current job) doing fatigue analysis (on metals from Aluminum to Nitinol) and yes I understand how a strut brace should work. My point is simply stay out of his thread you have NOTHING to back up your opinion. I will gladly do a deflection test on the shock towers for you if you like and prove how good or Bad your tower works (I can measure in comparison to the firewall)? I can measure defelction while the car is moving and to as much movement as .00001"....... (FYI I mainly tested medical devices so my measuring sytems are all very accurate and have passed FDA approval over 20 times)

I think that would be a great idea. Measure before and after.

[Chewy]

This thread is about two posts away from being closed at what I see as NO fault of the Pedders guys. When you say this
I'd like to know what everyone thinks about it. You can and should expect to hear the good and bad IMO. Just because these guys sell their own doesn't mean they can't comment. They have done a great job of pointing out what THEY think are the faults without selling their own. Right or wrong we ALL have our opinions. Let's keep it civil.

Cheers,
Chris

[GRRRR8]

This is what I was trying to avoid. Exude is an excellent word! :)

[-Ray-]

You may understand suspension but I have spent the last 10+ years of my life (prior to my current job) doing fatigue analysis (on metals from Aluminum to Nitinol) and yes I understand how a strut brace should work. My point is simply stay out of his thread you have NOTHING to back up your opinion. I will gladly do a deflection test on the shock towers for you if you like and prove how good or Bad your tower works (I can measure in comparison to the firewall)? I can measure defelction while the car is moving and to as much movement as .00001"....... (FYI I mainly tested medical devices so my measuring sytems are all very accurate and have passed FDA approval over 20 times)

I have worked for a large metrology company for the last 11 years. Please, since I'm an applications engineer, lets see your method for measuring to 10 millionth's in a moving G8. Some of my experience is in the nanometer range.

Since the 2 other posters have experience in steering geometry, they have a right to post in this thread.
If that is an issue for you, may I suggest you start a thread of your own, since you are not the OP.

Now, having said that, and Chris' post. The rest of this thread needs to be civil.

[TheTugBoat]

lol...

[r33pwrd]

I have worked for a large metrology company for the last 11 years. Please, since I'm an applications engineer, lets see your method for measuring to 10 millionth's in a moving G8. Some of my experience is in the nanometer range.

You are correct I cannot measure it that accuratley on a moving car... In all honesty the only time we ever did this on a car was to the owners Porsche and we spent many hours setting it up. I will see if I can find some pictures of the setup we did on his car. (we did his to measure the affect of a harness bar with and without floor mounts)

[-Ray-]

Just get a digital indicator with a peak hold feature. If you can measure accurately to 10 microns it would be fine. I've seen a few torsional load applications. None of them automotive.
I think I have one in the shop. Just need to find a mag base.

[DRCUSTOMPARTS]

Not bashing, i'm sure that plenty of people are happy with his products, but it's just not very well thought out
I did put plenty of thought into this, and my first intention was to mount the brackets using 2 holes on each side, like I do on the W-Body cars. But I didn't want to buy 2 large pieces of aluminum and do a lot of cutting on it, which would waste a lot of expensive material and be more time consuming to make. So I figured by mounting the bar with one bolt, the brackets would be easier and quicker to make with less material waste, and I could test it out to see if the bar would make a noticeable difference. I was also concerned about the bar and/or brackets interfering with the hood, and I was able to confirm that it wouldn't once I got the bar and brackets mounted.

This is not the final design, as I said before the strut bar and mounting brackets ARE NOT for sale on my website, and I would like to utilize 2 mounting holes on each tower if possible. I am considering buying a welder, that way I can fabricate the brackets out of smaller pieces to reach both mounting holes, and this would eliminate material waste and machining time. The less time I spend making parts and buying material allows me to sell my products for an affordable price, which means a substantial savings for the customer. I have always felt that most aftermarket parts are too expensive, and my goal is to offer the same performance for less money.

I do feel that the people selling Pedders products seem to be the most defensive towards this design. This thread was rather calm until they voiced their opinion, and now it's turned into a heated discussion. There have been some good points stated here, specially the ones that Charlie posted, but there were also some that were rather meaningless and seemed to be a stab in the dark. I don't want this thread to get out of hand and turn into an argument, so I'm going to redesign the brackets and see if I can come up with something that most of you will agree on!

[GeorgeInNePa]

I have worked for a large metrology company for the last 11 years. Please, since I'm an applications engineer, lets see your method for measuring to 10 millionth's in a moving G8. Some of my experience is in the nanometer range.

Since the 2 other posters have experience in steering geometry, they have a right to post in this thread.
If that is an issue for you, may I suggest you start a thread of your own, since you are not the OP.

Now, having said that, and Chris' post. The rest of this thread needs to be civil.

Does that mean you read resumes while you drive the train?



















;)

[GRRRR8]

You and Ray are a close tie for the SMART ASS of the year award! LMAO!

[DRCUSTOMPARTS]

LOL!!! Ray seeing your were once a Toolmaker, don't you think measuring chassis movement in microns would have very little effect on handling? I don't recall ever making anything to those specs.....

[Mike@snl[OLD]]

Before I was involved in pedders I was a fabricator/chassis engineer. I am sorry that you have taken what I was saying as a bash against you. As I have said from the beginning you are talented and the craftmanship is superb. Once you have redesigned the mount you will have a strong product but the first iteration is nothing more than a cosmetic upgrade.

[DRCUSTOMPARTS]

Mike it does work and we will all find out if I can make it work even better. Thank you for the positive comments about my work and ability.

You might find this pretty amazing, I made those mounting brackets in my garage with a drill press/bandsaw/sander/bench vise. Just think what I could do with some REAL machine shop equipment!

[-Ray-]

LOL!!! Ray seeing your were once a Toolmaker, don't you think measuring chassis movement in microns would have very little effect on handling? I don't recall ever making anything to those specs.....

Yeah, I'd like to know if it moved .5" or more. Not even Parnelli Jones would feel that. LOL

[DRCUSTOMPARTS]

I'm sure Richard Petty could, he's the KING!:first:

[DRCUSTOMPARTS]

To me as long as there's linear rigidity in a strut brace, it will do the job. The Pedders brackets are stronger than the ones I made because of the way they mount to the towers, but I feel my bar is MUCH stronger and mounts a lot more securely to the brackets. So in essence each one does have a weakness, but I can overcome that in mine pretty easily.

And like Charlie said earlier, the bar should be directly in-line with the struts to be the most effective, because that is the point were the flex originates. I should be able to get the bar closer to the centerline of the struts with some redesigned brackets, and my design just might end up being the best one available.....

[GRRRR8]

This could go on forever and I am done with it.