WTB: Turn-key 427 engine for G8 GT

[evilb]

All,

I'm posting this to gather information from the current grrrr8.net sponsors.

I am looking for a shop, preferably on the East Coast, to perform a 427ci engine swap in a 2009 G8 GT. I will either already have installed, or will supply the full exhaust system.

What I'm mainly interested in seeing is a list of items, modifications (porting the heads, etc.), and cost estimates including installation labor, and ECU/TCM tuning. I will either drive or ship the car to your shop for the installation. I am also looking for testimonials, or user comments for various vendors and their experiences with them in regards to custom engine work.

I would like the car to maintain stock driveability, and will need to cam to be mild enough so that it's barely audible or very subtle from the exterior. Sleeper. I don't want it to sound like a racecar.

What's my motivation to do this? The HSV W427.

Please feel free to PM me with this information, or respond to this thread. I felt this was the better place to put this request as opposed to e-mailing each vendor individually. I would also be happy to discuss on the phone if preferred.

Thanks!
Brad

[GRRRR8]

You may want to contact Carolina Auto Master. They have already performed this swap.

[evilb]

You may want to contact Carolina Auto Master. They have already performed this swap.

I talked to Jeff last night and this morning. Me and him go way back. I still would like to see what other options are available, and if they will in the long run be cost effective--or if it's more cost effective to heavily modify the L76 engine.

I'm thinking the 427 would give me more flexibility for future modifications if I get bored, but I'm open to options and other suggestions that might not be as crazy as swapping in a new engine.

B

[The Commodore]

Well, what performance goals do you want to reach?

I think you could forge the internals of the L76, get a twin turbo kit(one is already out and another is on its way) and you would have more power than an LS7 with about the same cost maybe less. This is assuming LS7's still cost 15k and you are looking to get an LS7.

Of course you can get more HP and TQ out of an LS7 in the long run but then again what performance do you want?

[Steve]

All,

I'm posting this to gather information from the current g8board.com sponsors.


What's this G8board.com thingamajig you speak of? ;)

but a 427 would be VERY sexy..

[evilb]

Woops... my bad... I posted the same thing on the "other" forum and didn't edit the copy+paste job :)

My performance goals are 500-600HP at the crank. I do not want to go with a twin-turbo kit, because I want this car to be able to be daily-driven in every condition. I was initially going to purchase a E55, E63, or C63 Mercedes... so my goal is to have better straightline performance than any of those 3, while retaining all of the comforts of a daily driver, and without constant maintenance (eg: supercharged or turbocharged). My point of reference is my friend's 05 E55 with a Kleemann K2 package which makes close to 600HP. His car is a 5.5L V8 with a positive displacement supercharger (OEM).

I know it's possible for the L76 to reach the mid-upper 400's at the wheels with cam/headwork... but most of what I've seen needs a relatively aggressive cam to hit those levels.

Brad

[4doorvette]

Woops... my bad... I posted the same thing on the "other" forum and didn't edit the copy+paste job :)

My performance goals are 500-600HP at the crank. I do not want to go with a twin-turbo kit, because I want this car to be able to be daily-driven in every condition. I was initially going to purchase a E55, E63, or C63 Mercedes... so my goal is to have better straightline performance than any of those 3, while retaining all of the comforts of a daily driver, and without constant maintenance (eg: supercharged or turbocharged). My point of reference is my friend's 05 E55 with a Kleemann K2 package which makes close to 600HP. His car is a 5.5L V8 with a positive displacement supercharger (OEM).

I know it's possible for the L76 to reach the mid-upper 400's at the wheels with cam/headwork... but most of what I've seen needs a relatively aggressive cam to hit those levels.

Brad

you should think of the trans it might go kaboom

[99-LS1-SS]

I would think you could easily get 500+ crank horsepower with a supercharger and a mild cam.

[evilb]

I would think you could easily get 500+ crank horsepower with a supercharger and a mild cam.

No forced induction. I'm not running the risk of spending an equal amount of money to supercharge/tune the vehicle, then possibly grenade the engine and be back to square one.

Had a 99 Cobra and did that. Spent about $4000 on the Vortech kit and a tune, and 1500 miles later--boom. Cracked a nice chunk off the #2 piston. Then $8500 later, I had a newly rebuilt engine with head work, cams, and 603HP on the dyno... only to be rewarded with belt-shredding or tensioner seizing every 1000 or 1500 miles. Not going down that road again.

Natural aspiration all the way.

Brad

[99-LS1-SS]

Well, knowing that I would go with the 408 or the 427. Either motor is easily capable of those horsepower numbers.

Hell, you can get an LSX motor and have over 600 horsepower and have plenty of room to grow.

[BlownG8GT]

Although I will agree that a 427 in a G8 makes me tingle inside. I think your performance goals can be reached quicker and CHEAPER using a supercharger like the one offered by Magna Charger. I see you are looking for daily driven reliability and performance, you will get both with the TVS1900 system. This utilizes the same supercharger that the ZR1, and CTS-V use from the factory.

I drive mine every day and beat the living shit out of it EVERY DAY and it NEVER misses a beat. 500 crank HP is easy to obtain on low boost, and the supercharger is capable of growing with your desire to add cubic inches later.

I have maintained 26 mpg highway and 18 MPG average with the supercharger and I have 480 rwhp on tap when I need it.


Just my .02.

[Darkside]

You can hit your goals with the current motor. A heads and cam package will get you the 500hp, been done many times already. Having the right tuner to get the idle you want will be the key. Personally I like the lopey ass cam as long as it stays running.

There are other options for the speed you want besides the hp numbers. Getting a converter and gears with 500hp and you'll have more than you can handle in the straight line.

[The Commodore]

I think 500 crank HP can be attained for a lot less money with a good non DOD cam, LT headers, the new ram air system or otr NEP and tune(obviously), throw in a TQ converter and I don't think you will have any problems with your friends merc.

You can do the LS7(I'm assuming that's the 427 you want) and many on this board will be happy to hear about it but you can make that power cheaper and even NA on the L76. Or you could buy a GXP and do the same stuff and really put a beating on his car.

But I don't understand why you think FI can't be DD.

[evilb]

I think 500 crank HP can be attained for a lot less money with a good non DOD cam, LT headers, the new ram air system or otr NEP and tune(obviously), throw in a TQ converter and I don't think you will have any problems with your friends merc.

You can do the LS7(I'm assuming that's the 427 you want) and many on this board will be happy to hear about it but you can make that power cheaper and even NA on the L76. Or you could buy a GXP and do the same stuff and really put a beating on his car.

But I don't understand why you think FI can't be DD.

It's not that I don't think FI can't be a daily driver, it's just that based on previous experience, with engines that are not designed for boost, you run an exponentially greater risk of catastrophic engine failure than if FI was not in the equation.

Granted, there are probably a lot more experienced forced induction tuners now than there was in 99 when I did my Cobra, but the bottom line is that detonation will cause damage and a number of things can cause it--tune aside. All it takes is some bad detonation that you might not audibly notice and boom, there goes a piston.

I had a 2000 S4 with factory twin turbos... it was designed for forced induction. The internals were forged, and the engine was designed to handle 600HP+. It was *extremely* rare to hear about engine failure in those cars because of that.

All of these tuners can say that there are zero reliability problems with putting a Magnacharger on the car until they're blue in the face, but the bottom line is that this car has only been out for 2 years, and you're feeding a lot more air into it than it was designed for. I've seen it first hand too many times when guys blow their stock engines that have been supercharged...

I would love to be proven wrong, though! I absolutely love the sound of a positive displacement supercharger on a V8.

B

[Ktlplxm]

I already have this done, so If you want to talk about it, PM me and I'll get in touch with you. If you want torque you can do it one way, if you want HP, then a different way all together. I'm very satisfied with my 427, and will be more than happy to talk about both products and Vendors. Sorry to hear someone else is doing this so soon, but at least I was one of the first of many vs way down the line that are doing the same thing as everyone else lol

[The Commodore]

It's not that I don't think FI can't be a daily driver, it's just that based on previous experience, with engines that are not designed for boost, you run an exponentially greater risk of catastrophic engine failure than if FI was not in the equation.

Granted, there are probably a lot more experienced forced induction tuners now than there was in 99 when I did my Cobra, but the bottom line is that detonation will cause damage and a number of things can cause it--tune aside. All it takes is some bad detonation that you might not audibly notice and boom, there goes a piston.

I had a 2000 S4 with factory twin turbos... it was designed for forced induction. The internals were forged, and the engine was designed to handle 600HP+. It was *extremely* rare to hear about engine failure in those cars because of that.

All of these tuners can say that there are zero reliability problems with putting a Magnacharger on the car until they're blue in the face, but the bottom line is that this car has only been out for 2 years, and you're feeding a lot more air into it than it was designed for. I've seen it first hand too many times when guys blow their stock engines that have been supercharged...

I would love to be proven wrong, though! I absolutely love the sound of a positive displacement supercharger on a V8.

B

Do some research in the Aus. forums. They have had this car longer than us. Honestly I'm not sure how well our engines handle boost. But if there was any problem of our engines blowing cause of boost...the aussie forums would be where to look. Of course they do not have DOD but you can remove DOD.

[BSmith]

If you keep the boost conservative, you are going to be fine. I don't think anyone is blowing a motor up with 6 psi.

I know of an LS2 with headers, Procharger, and tune (obviously) that made 475 at the wheels through a 22" wheel. That was on 4-5 lbs of boost.

[wreckwriter]

I already have this done, so If you want to talk about it, PM me and I'll get in touch with you. If you want torque you can do it one way, if you want HP, then a different way all together. I'm very satisfied with my 427, and will be more than happy to talk about both products and Vendors. Sorry to hear someone else is doing this so soon, but at least I was one of the first of many vs way down the line that are doing the same thing as everyone else lol

You will always be the first :)

[MtbDoc]

It would be WELL worth your time to talk to the Aussies about what can be SAFELY done. Martin Donnan (LS1turbo.com.au) builds the GenTT kits that have done very well. I have one on my GTO and like it's VIOLENT tendencies. Eats AMG's for lunch...trust me. I have thought about a GenTT for the G8, but really want to do something different. I keep recycling the following ideas:

1 - stay simple: intake, tune; maybe headers
2 - above + cam
3 - blower: Maggie or ATI are the available choices

I really don't see the entirely new engine as a cost-effective solution; I thought about it on the GTO, but then went modified STS (didn't like the lag), then GenTT. I always figured if I DID blow it up, I'd go with a forged bottom end + cam + more boost...but then we get into the area of STUPID for a daily driver!

This is a MARVELOUS platform for a high performance ultra-sedan. As I've noted before, I like this car so much I wish I could simply change all the GTO stuff over to it! I've got a bunch of sound deadening in it...150+ is like 70 in most cars. Truly remarkable. I get all fuzzy inside when I think about what the G8 would be like "fully built".

All of that to say, have fun w/ your big inch engine...but boost can be safe and reliable.

[Mike@NewEra]

I can get you 600hp at the crank with a 427 without porting your stock heads, no problem. Make sure the full exhaust system includes ARH 1 7/8 headers (or comparable?). PM me if you are interested and serious, I can write up an estimate for you.

[mpostr]

superchargers suck compared to turbos and turbo is better bang for the buck than natural aspiration- they rob horsepower before giving it back. Turbos are very reliable if you have someone who knows how to tune the car correctly. I raced scca spo for 5 years in nothing but turbo cars and they are amazing. Nothing comes close to the rush of power. Naturally aspirated is nice but for the money they are asking for this motor - rediculous. Put the turbos on, build the bottom end right (forget about headwork you dont need it with 15 to 20 lbs of boost) and hold on. Bottom line - some of the most prestigious auto makers are now making all turbo line up or forced induction cars for a reason. Also, nothing like the flame burst on downshift at the track - My g8 will be equipped qith tt's soon and i fully intend on blowing the doors off of z06's and anything else that has the balls to try the beast:flame:

[Ktlplxm]

superchargers suck compared to turbos and turbo is better bang for the buck than natural aspiration- they rob horsepower before giving it back. Turbos are very reliable if you have someone who knows how to tune the car correctly. I raced scca spo for 5 years in nothing but turbo cars and they are amazing. Nothing comes close to the rush of power. Naturally aspirated is nice but for the money they are asking for this motor - rediculous. Put the turbos on, build the bottom end right (forget about headwork you dont need it with 15 to 20 lbs of boost) and hold on. Bottom line - some of the most prestigious auto makers are now making all turbo line up or forced induction cars for a reason. Also, nothing like the flame burst on downshift at the track - My g8 will be equipped qith tt's soon and i fully intend on blowing the doors off of z06's and anything else that has the balls to try the beast:flame:

If someone is going to put that much time, energy and money into a vehicle why wouldn't they go ahead and do the head work? With adequate head work you can produce better numbers at lower boost levels, thus putting less head gasket-popping cylinder pressure into the engine. You mentioned that the amount of money someone is asking for an engine as being ridiculous; if he has to build a completely forged bottom end to handle all the boost you are suggesting, its still going to cost him just as much. An adequately built shortblock for a forced induction engine is just as, if not more expensive, than a NA engine. Coupled with the required bottom end, the turbo set up being suggested would cost at least twice as much, so the cost benefit gets thrown right out the window.

[evilb]

If someone is going to put that much time, energy and money into a vehicle why wouldn't they go ahead and do the head work? With adequate head work you can produce better numbers at lower boost levels, thus putting less head gasket-popping cylinder pressure into the engine. You mentioned that the amount of money someone is asking for an engine as being ridiculous; if he has to build a completely forged bottom end to handle all the boost you are suggesting, its still going to cost him just as much. An adequately built shortblock for a forced induction engine is just as, if not more expensive, than a NA engine. Coupled with the required bottom end, the turbo set up being suggested would cost at least twice as much, so the cost benefit gets thrown right out the window.

100% agree with everything you've said here.

Brad

['02 ws6]

Why are you stuck w/ a 427, and ls3 or ls7? I can pinpoint everything from an ls1 to ls7s that have 600 crank hp, whether it be NA or FI. If it's for the namesake you're wasting $$. TSP sells everything from forged 346's to lsx shortblocks and even 346,370,383,402,408,414,440,454 fully build longblocks that paired with the right parts will do 600 crank easily. Build the right 408 and you're @ 525+....REAR WHEEL NA, all in the $10k range, so quit pricing the "stock" $15k ls7's and get off that expensive idea. There's stock cube ls1s that knick the 500rwhp w/ H/C/I/E, so build and price accordingly. And don't be afraid of "aggressive cams", find a GOOD tuner and the behavior of it will be very nice.

EXAMPLE

440cid - either ls7 alum or lsx iron block

http://texas-speed.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=830&catid=82

[Ktlplxm]

Why are you stuck w/ a 427, and ls3 or ls7? I can pinpoint everything from an ls1 to ls7s that have 600 crank hp, whether it be NA or FI. If it's for the namesake you're wasting $$. TSP sells everything from forged 346's to lsx shortblocks and even 346,370,383,402,408,414,440,454 fully build longblocks that paired with the right parts will do 600 crank easily. Build the right 408 and you're @ 525+....REAR WHEEL NA, all in the $10k range, so quit pricing the "stock" $15k ls7's and get off that expensive idea. There's stock cube ls1s that knick the 500rwhp w/ H/C/I/E, so build and price accordingly. And don't be afraid of "aggressive cams", find a GOOD tuner and the behavior of it will be very nice.

EXAMPLE

440cid - either ls7 alum or lsx iron block

http://texas-speed.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=830&catid=82

I'm not sure why he would want a stock LS7 either, but I can understand not wanting anything under 416 inches. Yes, it is fairly simple to make 600 crank hp with a smaller engine, but it is so much easier the more cubes you have. Of course going the longblock wayis almost a waste of money in itself considering the parts he already has available. Porting his existing heads and then pairing them with a 416 or 427 shortblock (5-6k) will still put him in the 600 range.

['02 ws6]

^Agreed.

I posted those longblocks because he was quoting a horrendous $15k motor!! They do offer L92 heads instead of the massive LS7 as well, just in case he wanted to retain his stock engine completely. There are WAY cheaper options. TSP will run their CNC program on a casting head porting programs for customers so that's another option too.

[JimmyJazz]

Jason (TSP) says he can get 20 HP or so from cnc'ing the ports and milling off a couple 'thou. off our stock heads.

[evilb]

^Agreed.

I posted those longblocks because he was quoting a horrendous $15k motor!! They do offer L92 heads instead of the massive LS7 as well, just in case he wanted to retain his stock engine completely. There are WAY cheaper options. TSP will run their CNC program on a casting head porting programs for customers so that's another option too.

Not sure who was posting the $15k motor quote, but it wasn't me. I was receiving quotes in the $10,000 range installed and tuned with headers, port work, and a custom cam.

In other news... I love this thread :)

B

['02 ws6]

Oh ok that's my fault then, I saw $15k that someone was wanting for one and thought you were interested in it. That 10k price isn't bad for what's being done. I'm not by any means bashing your idea, just giving a couple more viable options that in the long run could net you more power and possibly save money.

And TSP knows their stuff on ls based motors, so I would take anything that jason, matt, jon, trevor, or john says to heart. I'm two hours away from them so I admit I'm a little biased (actually my dream job would be to run a cnc on their PRCs heads for them).
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