Our last real problem: Procharger's intake filter location

[TonyKarter]

You know, over the years on this forum we have solved 99.9% of all the G8 issues that have presented themselves. I swear, our lot could have worked for NASA and solved many of their problems. Using duct tape. I for one am very proud of you and what we have accomplished here in our spare time. You have been very resourceful, and it proves that this forum attracts some of the best thinkers that America has to offer. Kudos to our vendors, too...you recognize our wants and needs and provide for them.

However, a solution to the Procharger's intake location and its resultant high IAT's eludes us to this day. We have danced around and ignored this problem. In the summer months it is just too hot in much of the country to efficiently run this setup as it is currently configured.

It is time for us to put on our thinking caps again, think outside the box and put this too behind us. I have to believe that this one is not insurmountable and bigger than we are. I am reluctant to call on anyone in particular, but I think a solution to the problem will require certain technology to which only one or two on here have access.

I think our saviors are going to turn out to be Nate, and Patrick Ledford at Vararam. Nate, with your access to the lithography capabilities needed to prototype a solution, would you please give serious thought to taking this on? Let me throw out the first idea and see if we can all attack it from there.

I envision an intake snorkel such that the air filter is relocated up front and down, more in the stock position. It would seem that if we were to find a solution, many would beat a path to your door. It doesn't need to be round if there isn't enough room, and clinging to the idea that it has to be 3-4" and round has stopped us from fixing this before now. Obviously this is due to the fact that there isn't room for 3-4" ducting to the front of the engine bay. Although the pre-Procharger intake-side flow dynamics might suffer from different shape tubing, it would still be better to have lower IAT's. The trade out in cfm’s and loss of laminar flow could be nominal. Figure and prove what room is left under the hood when it is closed and go with it...work back from there. Is there enough triangular or trapezoidal-shaped space between the Procharger housing and the auto body? No? So back up and go a different direction:

Patrick, as I have stated before, you have forgotten more about flow dynamics than the rest of us will ever collectively know. You were Ford's go-to engineer for their emergent 5.0 intake technology back in the 80's and early 90's. If anybody can figure this out you can. Find us a high pressure area at the base of the windshield with your pressure sensors and find a way to tap into it, channeling it to the Procharger intake. Even if it requires modification of the upper firewall or window base grill area. We could use that space to our advantage. Design for us a Vararam filter housing to replace the cone filter and locate it over the back of the engine, taking its source from outside the engine bay, somehow from under that black grill. Don't worry about extrusion molds and their associated costs - the volume will be too low. You design it and I'll get a prototype machined for us to test. Agreed, the housing would heatsoak, but the intake air would surely be cooler than what the current Procharger intake configuration is now sourcing. Or just run it to the front of the bay as you normally do, but route it as needed.

We can do this. We as a group are too resourceful to let this beat us. And this forum needs a new challenge to rally around like we used to in the early days.

The outcome is a foregone conclusion. Like old times, the fun will be in the discovery, and the journey.

[thebeast]

Iats are pretty bad at the end of my 1/4 mile run. Went from 102-130degrees at the end of the run.
Around town in his heat only 98 and lower.

But it is a problem. With the procharger kit, the problem I see is where you will relocate the inlet to is where the new overflow is for the radiator. Right behind the driver side headlight

[TonyKarter]

Yes, that is a problem, but not one that can't be worked around. What do you think should be done with the overflow?

[thebeast]

Over flow can stay. There may be room for a small filter with a heat shield like on a roto and to seal against the hood which could have a small pipe come out the bottom and go down next to the overflow and right In front of our open honeycomb grill

[thebeast]

Next week I will be removing the crash support bar which is directly in frOnt of the radiator to see of that makes a huge difference

[TonyKarter]

Would somebody with a Procharger please try this idea: Let's define just how much room is available between the Procharger housing, the top of the wheel well, and the driver side bulkhead, and move this problem down the road one notch.

We need something compressible to fit in that space such that the hood can be closed, compressing the material between all of the surfaces. It must remain in that shape when the hood is opened again. It must remain in that shape after being removed too. Great Stuff in a balloon? That sprayable, expandable packing foam stuff we have all received? A loaf of homemade bread? Put it in there and let it harden and define the available space.

Mail it to me. I've got a buddy a few houses down that designs and manufactures down-hole tools for the oil industry. His shop is full of the CNC machines we need to duplicate the exterior dimensions. From there he can CAD a flow channel inside those exterior dimensions, flange each end to accept off the shelf tubing, mill and finish it. I'll drive it over to Patrick in Pasadena to flow bench it. Lets see if that space will flow what we need. If so then the rest is fairly simple.

[wreckwriter]

I'll be watching this thread..... Honestly not sure it can be done without a hood scoop. The only possible solution might be flat formed tubing of some sort. can't squeeze the diameter down much nor introduce sharp bends without being counter-productive.

[TonyKarter]

If we can come up with a fitting to get the air past the Procharger housing, AND, if we can get Patrick excited about this maybe, just maybe he'll design something "Vararam" in nature to put in front of the Procharger. I bet he has several designs cast off in his Recycle Bin that are already better than anything we need! We are going to need a filter somewhere. Why not make it a forced induction setup. Kinda' force induction of the force inductor.

[wreckwriter]

If it happens I'll be all over it. In the past we never could get anyone with real design skills interested.

[wreckwriter]

Iats are pretty bad at the end of my 1/4 mile run. Went from 102-130degrees at the end of the run.
Around town in his heat only 98 and lower.

But it is a problem. With the procharger kit, the problem I see is where you will relocate the inlet to is where the new overflow is for the radiator. Right behind the driver side headlight

Only 130? I've seen close to 200.

[TonyKarter]

The only possible solution might be flat formed tubing of some sort.

Tom that is exactly what my mind's eye is seeing. Thin-walled black plastic tubing in that area. Or a short aluminum fitting. Either of which being odd shape by necessity, behind the housing to deal with just that constricted area, to which other tubing is attached at either end. Opening it up ID-wise were space allows. OR, another under-hood area that might lend itself to a greater ID, however circuitous the alternative routing. All of which being vetted as optimal by Patrick's flow bench.

I'm sure you've spent hours bent over the front of yours conceptualizing. What do you think? I'll run that tubing around the car twice if that is what is needed, but cutting the hood on a street install is not an attractive option. If we can get past the Procharger the rest should be much easier. Or is there an easier alternate pathway available to the front to get cool air? The back? From under around the windshield wipers? You've given more thought to this than anyone. What do you think?

[wreckwriter]

I've beat my head against this for years, literally. I don't see a way without cutting the hood. There's just no room without introducing sharp bends which would be bad too. Windshield is interesting idea, no sure how much pressure would be there, could be enough?

[gr8lover]

I am still liking the shaker idea... would fit perfectly car back into our setup i think..... now that i got the car back .... i will be working on this over the summer.... will be watching thread also....

[TonyKarter]

Windshield is interesting idea, no sure how much pressure would be there, could be enough?

Patrick probably lives and breathes this type of problem solving. I'll call him tomorrow. Go make me a homemade bread mock up!

[NIevo]

I am planning on going the Procharger route and also hate the location of the filter. It's hard for me to know exactly what the limitations for relocating are as I've never seen on in person but based on the pictures I have a few questions for those of you that do have one.

Is there any way to make the factory hood louvers functional? Maybe open them up and create some sort of ducting to direct the air toward the filter? Wouldn't be a perfect fix but from the sounds of it anything would help.

Is there enough room anywhere to direct the piping/filter under the Procharger unit and toward the front of the car? Would increase piping length but get better air temps. Even if it had to run part way through the wheel well, some the the turbo kits do the same thing with their piping.

Finally, is there no way to re-mount it where the outlet points down that runs through the intercooler and into the intake? If so that would enable you to run the intake pipe up and around that side that the piping currently comes out of. Sorta like clocking the unit 45degrees or so. Obviously the mounts and belt would have to be changed but just a thought.

[TonyKarter]

NIevo,
All excellent ideas. Somebody run with it. THe louvers would be good, but would have to be engineered to eliminate water and possible hydro-lock.

[wreckwriter]

Factory hood scoop idea is a no go, low pressure area of hood.

[It's A G8!]

Something like this should work. It doesn't look pretty but if it help right.
15272

[wreckwriter]

99% sure it won't fit. Big bends too. dunno but don't think so.

[thebeast]

I was thinking about that intake as well for our cars. I think my buddy with his camaro is local to me has that intake. I will meet up with him and swap it over.

[wreckwriter]

Let us know!

[NIevo]

Man, now I want to get one just to try and figure this out! Just curious but what would be worse, the current position and high IAT's or some tighter bends and slightly longer piping but cooler, more direct air flow? I would think that the even if you have tighter bends that better air would still be more beneficial, but not 100% sure and not sure to what extent. I've been looking over these photo's here: http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0903gmhtp_2008_pontiac_g8_gt_procharger_ho_interco oled_supercharger_system_install/photo_42.html and am curious about a couple things.

Is there enough room to angle the pipe that runs from the unit to the intercooler down to more of a angle? In other words shorten the vertical part to creat more of a 45-50degree down angle instead of the current 10degree or so angle. That might enable you to run a pipe through the middle of the curve and have a filter located in front of the Procharger unit. In the picture below it would be the pipe by his hands angling it down more and running the intake through the middle.

15273

[Steve]

It's been my beef and reason for so far not going with a centrifugal supercharger. Anyone tried to see if you can re-clock the volute downwards like on the camaros? I had been looking into it, but it may require a relocate of the powersteering pump (thus belt difference etc.. more like CTS-V) to make enough room was going to get some 3 inch pipe and a styrofoam mockup of a V7-YSi supercharger and see if I could get it to fit in there somehow.. I had some brain blurbs written about it on my blog a couple of months go: http://g8gt.blogspot.com/2012/03/supercharger-musings-part-iv-camaro-vs.html (for those interested there's like 6 parts with me blabbing on and on and on lol)

[WickedMom]

Man, now I want to get one just to try and figure this out! Just curious but what would be worse, the current position and high IAT's or some tighter bends and slightly longer piping but cooler, more direct air flow? I would think that the even if you have tighter bends that better air would still be more beneficial, but not 100% sure and not sure to what extent. I've been looking over these photo's here: http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0903gmhtp_2008_pontiac_g8_gt_procharger_ho_interco oled_supercharger_system_install/photo_42.html and am curious about a couple things.

Is there enough room to angle the pipe that runs from the unit to the intercooler down to more of a angle? In other words shorten the vertical part to creat more of a 45-50degree down angle instead of the current 10degree or so angle. That might enable you to run a pipe through the middle of the curve and have a filter located in front of the Procharger unit. In the picture below it would be the pipe by his hands angling it down more and running the intake through the middle.

15273

This pipe is the one we had the trouble most with. I do not think there is any easy way to angle it further...

IMO, meth is the only solution for this... moving the air inlet doesnt seem possible to me without some serious re-engineering

[locrzn#92]

These guys that installed mine wanted me to go procharger and I decided against if for that very reason. The maggie looks better under the hood because of the stupid filter hanging over the coils. Just not appealing to me and that was the deciding factor. I love the way the procharger sounds and they definetly make some serious power. Good luck on finding a solution.

[wreckwriter]

I've investigated going to an air-water intercooler with an ice box. Again this is not a good solution for you street folks. It will also be pricey and a pain to carry lots of ice to the track. The only real solution is fixing the intake rather than bandaids like this or meth.

[incon3037r]

It's been my beef and reason for so far not going with a centrifugal supercharger. Anyone tried to see if you can re-clock the volute downwards like on the camaros? I had been looking into it, but it may require a relocate of the powersteering pump

I don't know if there is any truth in this, but I heard that 180 degree bend from the head unit is a big contributor to the high IAT's on the Procharger. Do the Camaro guys suffer from the same IAT problem? I'm doing a custom intercooler and piping on my setup and plan on clocking my head unit downward to provide a straighter path to the intercooler. Once I stop procrastinating and have mine installed I will see if it makes any difference in IAT's.

[TonyKarter]

I was thinking about that intake as well for our cars. I think my buddy with his camaro is local to me has that intake. I will meet up with him and swap it over.

EXCELLENT! I've seen that one before and thrown it out for discussion but it was poo-pooed. Still, ductwork similar to that (if that one does not work, and I DAMN sure hope it does) would get it to the front of the compartment. I still want to talk to Patrick at Vararam. If we are going to do this we should explore trying to get a ram air effect if possible to improve efficiency. Specifically for the purpose of countering the inefficiency and negative effects of bends in the airflow that Tom was alluding to.

[TonyKarter]

moving the air inlet doesnt seem possible to me without some serious re-engineering

Jessica, you are right. This is going to take some serious engineering. To do it right anyway. It's going to take stereo lithography, CAD drawing, milling, flow benching, throwning it out, starting over, getting discouraged, kicking the cat. Everything that a normal production process would involve. That's why we need everyone on board, including the cat. We will prevail. We have beaten other problems on here. And it was fun doing it. With that as a backdrop, does anyone see a better cause to which to apply ourselves on this forum...at this time? And when we DO figure it out there is going to be many more Procharger purchases made than if we don't figure it out.

Okay, maybe we can't skin the cat by moving it forward. Maybe we can. Who knows. I bet Richard Childress would know...I bet he'd pluck this chicken in two minutes. We may have to explore the rear of the compartment. At least we don't have to worry about making another 90 degree bend and loss of efficiency there. Still, It's a G8 may have something there, or something close that we can McGyver and come out with a solution. It's a G8, Beast, please keep us posted and try to send us some pictures of it when you give it a try. Those will be most beneficial to our cause. And I'll start with a clean sheet of paper and consider the rear approach to the inlet. Somebody PLEASE send me a mockup of the space available between the Procharger and the fender bodywork. I can attack that at my buddy's oil instrument machine shop. It's just down the road, less than two miles from here, hidden out in these woods. Heck, both my wife and I both hit those deer within 200 yards from his shop, me on one side if it and her on the other. Send it to me, I'll work on it.

I've got to quote a couple of policies. I'll get back on this when I'm finished.

[XplicitPerformance]

This is something I am definitely going to keep an eye out on. I do not like the inlet design but I don't have any major issues with IAT's...I think after back to back to back runs on the street I saw 140 but that quickly came down with a little normal cruising. We do have the 3 core intercooler though. I am going to take a look at it as well.

[Steve]

I see a couple of possibilities:
a) somehow fab a custom intake tube like the vortech camaro kit without changing anything else. Doubt there's 'room' for it though since the camaro seems a little more spacious under the hood
b) Reclock the unit, having it point down instead of towards the passenger side, which hopefully will also free up a little room for the camaro style curved intake like vortech has. ofcourse Powersteering pump seems to be in the way for this
c) Do a total flip and build custom brackets/pulleys etc, get a CCW unit like they do down under with the vortech units and have it forward facing like so:
http://www.marksworkshop.com.au/Pages/custom/images/chris's e.jpg

[TonyKarter]

Okay everyone, I talked to Patrick at Vararam. IT'S ON!

What great timing: He was working on the 2012 Camaro Vararam setup as we spoke, had a Hertz rental Camaro SS in there tweaking on it. Because of several factors he has decided to do a cowl induction arrangement for it, not the usual tilt-the-radiator-back arrangement. According to Patrick, the MAF in the new Camaro does not like pressure, nor speed of air from the front of the car. The Camaro MAF is different than ours, different from even the 2011, more sensitive and harder to tune. This necessitates that he slow the air down by making it do a 180 degreee turn, much like the stock GM air box does from the inside of the compartment by twisting the air route. How is the best way for him to do this? By cowl inducting...FROM THE BACK OF THE HOOD AT THE BASE OF THE WINDOW! Make that air have to turn around. Could we be any luckier?

He immediately saw the parellels between what he was working on and our need. Our firewall/windshield wiper area is similar to the Camaro's. While ram effect would be good, lower IAT's are our base need. He said he could most definitely get us that, and with some tweaking possibly some ram effect too, but not as much as we have now. He said the Camaro final product (and ours too) will most probably evolve into a replacement grill below the wipers that incorporates an air induction grill leading to a filter over the rear of the engine, all insulated as much as technology will allow to insulate from heat soak. From there the two designs would deviate.

He said he only needs as little as 50 units to do a G8/Holden specific product for the Procharger, and he feels that volume could easily be met already from the inquiries and interest that he has received from some of the companies that he already deals with down under. Our demand is just icing on the cake, and motivation for him to go ahead and do it.


So it looks like we are off to a good start.


Where to from here? Step 2: I need someone with a Procharger in the SE Texas/Houston area to PM me. I'll set us an appointment to meet with Patrick for about a half day so that he can collect some information and measurements. He said we may even come away that day with some type of prototype to evaluate. He thinks he has some things from other designs that may be close already. It won't be the final product, but it will be a step in the right direction.

[thebeast]

Shane is in that area

[TonyKarter]

Shane, where are you located exactly?

[NIevo]

I thought Shane was in the St Louis area?

[TonyKarter]

Roadtrip!

[STL_G8GT]

Yes Shane is Stl!

[gman08]

subscribed for final product.

[TonyKarter]

Anyone with an installed Procharger in the SE Texas/Houston area that wants to help out on this?

[It's A G8!]

I think Xplicetperformance lives near by n has a procharger.

[shane]

I live near St louis i was in Houston just a few months ago/

[XplicitPerformance]

Anyone with an installed Procharger in the SE Texas/Houston area that wants to help out on this?

I fit the bill for this and I have dealt with Patrick in the past. However I will not allow any cutting on my vehicle this time around. He trimmed a few things on my TBSS and never completed the project.

[TonyKarter]

I understand completely. I would not want my car cut on either. I'm thinking I'm going to order a replacement...what do they call that thing anyway? The black piece of plastic grilling that fills the space between the hood and base of the windshield. That thing. Use it as a test mule. Or use the one I have and put the new one up for later if needed. I want this thing to happen.

[WickedMom]

It's the cowl. Ours is in two pieces but you only need the drivers side.


Sent from my insanely great iPhone 4s using Tapatalk

[Blown396]

EDIT: Well, after looking at it more closely, I dont think there is much room for this type of set up on a Daily Driver. :/

If you have the money and are serious, I suppose you can try this route:

Mount the S/C'er off the crank. Just a suggestion. I know probably not a viable alternative for a majority here. But food for thought. I also dont know how much room you'll need or have for this type of set up between it and the radiator.

http://cachassisworks.com/cac_press_CDS-supercharger-drive.html

15397 15398 15399





(http://cachassisworks.com/cac_press_CDS-supercharger-drive.html)

[Blown396]

15400 Its a Vortech system, but if they figured a way to get the air cleaner in "stock" location why cant procharger?

Or maybe something similar to Camaro system?

15401

[It's A G8!]

^^^^^Look at post 19

[Blown396]

:facepalm2: doh! Thats what I get for skimming through this thread! :) Just tryin' to help. :)

EB

[09G8DC]

Interested to see where this goes. I thought about trying to find someone to fab up something that would take the intake back to the windshield and scavenge from there.

[Buford]

Maybe there is no fix... is there an intercooler than is better than another that'll help cool the charge more? Seems like that is the point of the intercooler in the first place

[EcoBrick Bob]

Maybe some or all of you are already doing this, but my suggestion would be a Methanol pump spraying W/M up to 100% Methanol, into the intake pipe just in front of Throttle Body. I have done this on my Flex with twin turbos, and have seen temps drop below outside temp on a dyno. The bigger the boost, the bigger the spray nozzle.... Livernois pushes Alky Control, but I used a much simpler system that sprays at full volume at 8 PSI (adjustable), rather than a controller that adjusts volume based on RPM & PSI.

[wreckwriter]

There IS a fix, we just can't get anyone to build it... Rob, meth isn't enough, nor is a small nitrous shot. Best currently available answer will be an air to water intercooler with an ice tank; not very practical for anyone, totally not for street.

[Buford]

So, someone has tried 100% meth at the TB and it did not work at the back end of the track?

[wreckwriter]

I dunno about 100%, that has its own set of drawbacks I think. Not very familiar but I'm thinking availability, expense, will need to be tuned for, etc. Even it it did help, which it probably would to at least some degree, its still a band-aid on a poor design. I think TonyKarter's cowl induction idea offers the best shot without cutting the hood; too bad we can't get a 'fitter'. I'm sure in the end I'll cut my hood and add a real scoop.

[EcoBrick Bob]

Livernois only sells Alky Control Methanol spray systems that are 100% methanol... While I don't use theirs, the reasoning is that when tuning for it, you are sure of what you are spraying.
And it absolutely has to be tuned for the Methanol spray at WOT. If you don't tune for it, your vehicle will be somewhat slower, as it will run rich... Talk to Rick or Andy about this. Seriously, it really cools the charge, which is what you are looking for, right. There are many good articles on Methanol spray and what it can accomplish. Believe Livernois is using the Alkyl Control system on their new Camaro ZL-1 that ran in the 9's.

An air to water intercooler system is what Torrie @ Unleashed Tuning (my tuner of both Flex and 09' G8) uses on his Twin Turbo Ford GT, that has done 221+ mph in the Miami Mile. He may be able to make suggestions... He is the supplier of the only custom larger radiators for new SHO's, as they have a common overheating issue too.

[EcoBrick Bob]

In reviewing the specs on the Livernois Camaro, I do not see a Alky Control Methanol system listed... Was wrong. Still think this is a topic for Livernois discussion and input.

[libertysyclone]

A under hood icebox would work fine, and you can bypass it for street driving

This should fit between the pulleys and radiator, I doubt MOST of the cars here could come close to heatsoaking that with the proper pump and heatexchanger.

Rated at 1200hp 3.5" in/out
http://www.siliconeintakes.com//images/product/intercooler_type15_picture.jpg

The biggest issue I see is turning the compressor housing around (sorry if thats the wrong term I am used to turbos)

[gr8lover]

So, someone has tried 100% meth at the TB and it did not work at the back end of the track?

lots of guys do 100% meth... I do.... Not sure on how well it keeps temps down yet... but dont think I saw over 130 when it was 80 out... but more to come...

[EcoBrick Bob]

With the twin turbos on my Flex, I see a 25-35 degree drop, and only see it start back up slightly when I'm in 4th and above 90 mph. The hotter my original MCT (IAT + pass thru turbos) If you research Methanol and W/M systems, you will note that it has a very high octane # and when sprayed is an extremely good cooling choice. I can send links on articles if anyone wants. Have posted them on EB Forums.

Rick @ Livernois is a great source of info on Alky Control Methanol injection systems.

[wreckwriter]

I'm not convinced meth is an answer, never have been. Yet another thing that has to be filled up constantly.

[EcoBrick Bob]

Wreck, I e-mailed Rick to have him post on this. My experience with a #10 nozzle (10 gal per hr at 100 psi) is that a gallon of Methanol (a was paying under $4. at Cedar Falls Raceway) lasted me at least 25 runs. I use the Windshield Washer container (over 1 gal capacity) as my source. One can put a tank in trunk with a much larger capacity. There are lights to let you know if tank is low and if spray is working etc....

If it would work, it certainly would be less invasive than a hole in the hood. The methanol spray at a 50% concentration actually cut my 1/4 mi et. by around a 1/2 second when properly tuned for it.

Since I have little ProCharger experience, (other than boat engine builder having issues - and going to magnachargers on 540 bullldogs) it may not be what you need... but it's another possible solution...

Wishing all of you luck.

[wreckwriter]

Not so easily sourced around here. Yea I can get it but its a hassle. I'll running tomorrow in very hot weather, will try to remember to log a run.

[TailG8er]

I'm not convinced meth is an answer, never have been. Yet another thing that has to be filled up constantly.

I know I hate that damn gas tank. :)

[wreckwriter]

I know I hate that damn gas tank. :)

You'd hate it more if your gas cost $8.50 a gallon like mine does..... Plus nitrous at 7.00 per pound...

[TailG8er]

You'd hate it more if your gas cost $8.50 a gallon like mine does..... Plus nitrous at 7.00 per pound...

But the feeling of slamming the skinny pedal down and holding on for the ride has got to be worth it. I might have to make vacation plans for West Virginia so i can take a ride in that beast.

[wreckwriter]

Sorry, can't do rides. My nitrous bottle lives where the passenger seat used to be....

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii262/wreckwriter/41db86c8-62b5-4ec7-89a4-d20870bc635d.jpg

[TailG8er]

Sorry, can't do rides. My nitrous bottle lives where the passenger seat used to be....

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii262/wreckwriter/41db86c8-62b5-4ec7-89a4-d20870bc635d.jpg

Ok, looks like I'm driving then, haha. Just watched a video on youtube, gotta love that. I just cruised woodward and got rid of a little extra fuel.

[Devilish34]

You'd hate it more if your gas cost $8.50 a gallon like mine does..... Plus nitrous at 7.00 per pound...

93 and 100% meth looks a lot cheaper now

Will something like what Vortech did on the Camaro work.

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/prod_imgs/img-165-0-xlarge.jpg


Dual Nozzle should knock down the AITs
http://www.eastcoastsupercharging.com/store.html?page=shop.browse&category_id=176

[thebeast]

It should. We have that little piece of metal that comes off the shock tower with threads on it. That would need to be removed. Other then that there shouldn't be a problem .

[wreckwriter]

Don't think there's enough room between the snail and the inner fender.

[TailG8er]

I would like to see a setup with a boot that when the hood is closed pulls air from the factory hood scoop.

[wreckwriter]

Won't work. Scoops are in low pressure area.

[XplicitPerformance]

Best currently available answer will be an air to water intercooler with an ice tank; not very practical for anyone, totally not for street.


this is something I have been considering.

[wreckwriter]

Me too, maybe this winter.

[TailG8er]

Won't work. Scoops are in low pressure area.

Will that make a difference with the charger doing the work of getting the air into the engine? It would be free of engine heat.

Or duct it into the back of the foglamp hole with the foglamp removed?

[wreckwriter]

Won't pull enough air. Fog light possible but difficult ducting to it.

[Buford]

Lots of excuses ITT

[wreckwriter]

Not sure what ITT is but you're right, lots more excuses than engineering. We've had this problem for years and noone has built squat to remedy it.

[EcoBrick Bob]

You could take off the drivers side tire and run duct work into the wheel well. Imagine you would have the fastest tricycle at the Strip!

And if you absolutely positively need a 4 point stance... you could mount a BFD wheel to the A arm.

[Frostopsy]

I didn't have the chance to read all the threads on here. I suggest flipping the pro charger around, then flipping the manifold to give it a better route. Might have to do some hacking, but its another idea.

[SpeedRacerX]

The Paxton on my son's '89 Formula, I've been restoring for the last 9 months, doesn't have this problem. LOL.

Pulls air from a big hole where the driver-side battery tray used to be, gets air diverted to it from the factory underbody air diverter, and pulls through a K&N the size of a waste basket. You can hear it sucking even when just idling.

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu40/SpeedRacerXPB/2012-05-20111431.jpg

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu40/SpeedRacerXPB/2012-05-20111414.jpg

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu40/SpeedRacerXPB/2012-05-19142844.jpg

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu40/SpeedRacerXPB/2012-05-27114939.jpg


Good luck finding your solution guys.

[SpeedRacerX]

By the way, in case it sparks more ideas for you guys, this car runs the original, and I think ingenious, water injection system devised by the guy who built this car back in 1989. The windshield fluid reservoir is filled with a 50/50 mix of denatured alcohol and distilled water. It gets sprayed (only under boost) right before the throttle body but after the MAF Sensor. Helps cool the air.

I'm sure this is old school nowadays but I thought it might be worth sharing.

[Buford]

I upgrade the size of my filter today and removed the rubber liner that connects the firewall to the hood.
16224

[DMVG8]

The Paxton on my son's '89 Formula, I've been restoring for the last 9 months, doesn't have this problem. LOL.

Pulls air from a big hole where the driver-side battery tray used to be, gets air diverted to it from the factory underbody air diverter, and pulls through a K&N the size of a waste basket. You can hear it sucking even when just idling.

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu40/SpeedRacerXPB/2012-05-20111431.jpg

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu40/SpeedRacerXPB/2012-05-20111414.jpg

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu40/SpeedRacerXPB/2012-05-19142844.jpg

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu40/SpeedRacerXPB/2012-05-27114939.jpg


Good luck finding your solution guys.

Nice car, those black couplings look an awful lot like a 2" and 3" ferncos lol

[Devilish34]

The Paxton on my son's '89 Formula, I've been restoring for the last 9 months, doesn't have this problem. LOL.

Pulls air from a big hole where the driver-side battery tray used to be, gets air diverted to it from the factory underbody air diverter, and pulls through a K&N the size of a waste basket. You can hear it sucking even when just idling.

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu40/SpeedRacerXPB/2012-05-20111431.jpg

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu40/SpeedRacerXPB/2012-05-20111414.jpg

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu40/SpeedRacerXPB/2012-05-19142844.jpg

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu40/SpeedRacerXPB/2012-05-27114939.jpg


Good luck finding your solution guys.

no intercooler = bigger huddle than G8

[Devilish34]

Honestly Meth would offset 90% of this

[EcoBrick Bob]

ABSOPOSOLUTELY!!! Methanol rules!!!

[Blanky]

Wouldnt the easiest way to go have someone make a aftermarket cowl and a vararam intake to take advantage...

[Devilish34]

meth would still be cheaper/better

[TonyKarter]

One of the comments that Patrick Ledford at Vararam made when we discussed this is that the incoming air in a 6.0 or similar setup, even at WOT is seldom moving over 5 mph. I never really thought about the speed of the intake charge, but in this project it should be considered. Regardless if we end up with an intake point forward or cowl mounted, the path to the SC will be short...three, maybe five feet at the most. How long does it take to travel five feet at 5 mph? Do the math...please...'cause I'm so tired right now I'd screw up the equation. Even if passage to the SC is heat soaked it won't be in there long enough to absorb much of the heat. Compare that to sucking in the heat from under the hood. In Texas. In August. At 3:45pm. I dare anyone to come down here and plop your balls down on my hood around that time of day.

I want to apologize to everyone about not following through with this. I have acquired some challenges that have severely sidetracked me as of late. I WILL solve this, or I probably won't install my Procharger. In my humble opinion it is just too hot around here (and many other places too) for too long of a period of time, (before, during and after the summer) to have to draw in superheated air from under the hood. The skin grafts on the back side of my scrotum may be completely healed before I get this solved, but I will get it done.

Now, can we brainstorm on how we might address the issue of rain water being sucked into the intake on a cowl induction setup? Is hydro lock still an issue on a setup like this or could a little water be beneficial, like the super-induction emergency feature on some of the old WWII fighters? Usually used for extra speed in a getaway situation, the throttles of some fighters has a small gauge wire as a throttle stop at full throttle. When needed the pilot could push the throttle hard and break this small wire, activating a water induction system that would inject water into the intake mixture, thereby increasing the speed enough to get some separation on a pursuing enemy fighter. It could only be used in an emergency and only for a short while without damaging the engine. For us peak performance is not an issue at these times...I doubt anyone is going to be at WOT in the rain. Still, this is an issue that must be addressed in a well-engineered cowl induction setup. Ideas anyone?

[Blanky]

Ive been drinking beers and rain skipped right over my mind. If someonr does engineer a cowl and intake and adress the water issue i will be the first to buy

[TonyKarter]

Does .68 seconds sound about right?

[SpeedRacerX]

.634 seconds, so yes, .68 sounds about right.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

[gr8lover]

One of the comments that Patrick Ledford at Vararam made when we discussed this is that the incoming air in a 6.0 or similar setup, even at WOT is seldom moving over 5 mph. I never really thought about the speed of the intake charge, but in this project it should be considered. Regardless if we end up with an intake point forward or cowl mounted, the path to the SC will be short...three, maybe five feet at the most. How long does it take to travel five feet at 5 mph? Do the math...please...'cause I'm so tired right now I'd screw up the equation. Even if passage to the SC is heat soaked it won't be in there long enough to absorb much of the heat. Compare that to sucking in the heat from under the hood. In Texas. In August. At 3:45pm. I dare anyone to come down here and plop your balls down on my hood around that time of day.

I want to apologize to everyone about not following through with this. I have acquired some challenges that have severely sidetracked me as of late. I WILL solve this, or I probably won't install my Procharger. In my humble opinion it is just too hot around here (and many other places too) for too long of a period of time, (before, during and after the summer) to have to draw in superheated air from under the hood. The skin grafts on the back side of my scrotum may be completely healed before I get this solved, but I will get it done.

Now, can we brainstorm on how we might address the issue of rain water being sucked into the intake on a cowl induction setup? Is hydro lock still an issue on a setup like this or could a little water be beneficial, like the super-induction emergency feature on some of the old WWII fighters? Usually used for extra speed in a getaway situation, the throttles of some fighters has a small gauge wire as a throttle stop at full throttle. When needed the pilot could push the throttle hard and break this small wire, activating a water induction system that would inject water into the intake mixture, thereby increasing the speed enough to get some separation on a pursuing enemy fighter. It could only be used in an emergency and only for a short while without damaging the engine. For us peak performance is not an issue at these times...I doubt anyone is going to be at WOT in the rain. Still, this is an issue that must be addressed in a well-engineered cowl induction setup. Ideas anyone?

The air entering the procharger is being sucked in by the procharger isnt it?... so it is going much faster then 5mph... the ram effect is not that big a deal for the procharger i dont think as much as the location for the heat soaked air... maybe i am wrong...

also dont really have to worry about water due to wot in the rain... cause the engine will last alot longer than the person who actually does wot in the rain.... they will be slidding into someone or something.... :)

[gr8lover]

i still really like the lingenfelter trans am (2010 camaro mod) cowl hood and think that would work awesome for the procharger..... somehow... ... somehow....

[wreckwriter]

The air entering the procharger is being sucked in by the procharger isnt it?... so it is going much faster then 5mph... the ram effect is not that big a deal for the procharger i dont think as much as the location for the heat soaked air... maybe i am wrong...


This is my understanding also.

[TonyKarter]

And that is really the point I was trying to make. The air is going too fast to be around long enough to acquire heat from the intake hardware. As for ram effect...there is none on the cowl induction setup that Patrick is intending to use, at least not if Patrick uses the cowl induction pieces from the 2013 Camaro Vararam intake as the foundation of our problem solver. Patrick stated that ram effect of a front mounted Vararam causes the 2013's MAF to provide wide fluctuations in its readings. He moved the intake to the cowl to moderate the ram effect.


also dont really have to worry about water due to wot in the rain

You missed the point. Water intake at any throttle position in a badly designed system that encourages and assists rather than prevents or impedes water from coursing into the system. If God would have wanted our LSX motors to drink then by God he would have predestined the Holden engineers to provide for this. He didn't, they didn't...we shouldn't. Apparently, that's the way God planned it. Let's not mess with His plan.

[wreckwriter]

We don't need much of a ram effect, just needs to be a positive pressure area so it doesn't 'suck' the air right out of the intake. Not sure about defeating water intake, pretty much a non-issue for me but important for you street sorts for sure.

[lvgmman]

i am sad that this thread stalled. so i will bump it back to the top, while i order parts for meth injection.

[gr8lover]

i am sad that this thread stalled. so i will bump it back to the top, while i order parts for meth injection.

I have a complete akyl system..... just removed it from my car.... havent thought about selling it yet.. just too busy but will be selling shortly... if your interested...

[fengstang]

How much? :p

[lvgmman]

i am guessing nobody tested the vortech intake?

[G8-4-Speed]

21489214902149121492
All the updates to the Procharger kit I did.

[fengstang]

that cone filter looks ridicously bigger than the stock one.

[lvgmman]

difference in IAT in similar conditions?

[G8-4-Speed]

Never logged the difference. Did everything at once. Runs good, got a 10.76 @133 with stock gear and converter with it bumping the rev limiter.