6l80 trans rebuild

[G8GTSBM]

I'm in the process of rebuilding the 6l80 auto trans in the G8.

The trans would chatter and or slip and hardly hold any power.

This all started a day after I got it dyno tuned, after I did a cam, heads, stall build.

So I brought the car back to the tuner and showed him what was happening plus I was getting a po300 code and the car would not brake torque, Traction control was on all the time, you could not turn it off.

Well he fixed the po300 code and the traction control deal but didn't know what to do about the trans slipping, so he tried to blame the install like improper gap between the flexplate and the converter, which was about 3/32" and the trans fluid level which was good and then trans cooler, which I have one. So then he says my car makes too much power for the trans and there is nothing wrong with the trans tune.

So I bought HPTuners and found all the shift times set to zero. I tried setting them to .250 but the damage was done.

So here we go, Trans rebuild time.

[G8GTSBM]

A few pic's so far.
http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/g8gtsbm/G8%20Trans/2012-04-09_16-44-28_249.jpg

Parts explosion
http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/g8gtsbm/G8%20Trans/2012-04-19_12-10-11_92.jpg

Oil never seems to stop coming out of parts.

http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/g8gtsbm/G8%20Trans/2012-04-16_19-23-51_467.jpg

Ghetto trans stand.

http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/g8gtsbm/G8%20Trans/2012-04-19_12-14-55_561.jpg

Crazy big snap ring pliers
http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/g8gtsbm/G8%20Trans/2012-04-19_12-13-53_866.jpg

1-2-3-4 clutch pack fiber plates worn down to the steel and cupped very bad.

http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/g8gtsbm/G8%20Trans/2012-04-18_18-11-06_595.jpg

the difference between the stock pan and the Camaro pan.

http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/g8gtsbm/G8%20Trans/2012-04-19_12-12-30_809.jpg

[DetroitSpeedJunkie]

Subscribed. I will be following this thread closely.

[spider1701]

Suscribed

[STL_G8GT]

No ownership or responsibility to the tuner for 0ms shift times???!!!

[thebeast]

That's too quick of times for a stock trans. What were your torque management settings? My tuner has removed torque management from my completely but made my shift times .25 I think or .3. I've had his time in for 30000 miles an over 60 passes at the track and so far so good.

[G8GTSBM]

No ownership or responsibility to the tuner for 0ms shift times???!!!

None, plus you have to sign a waiver.

This happened last year before I put the car up for winter.

[G8GTSBM]

That's too quick of times for a stock trans. What were your torque management settings? My tuner has removed torque management from my completely but made my shift times .25 I think or .3. I've had his time in for 30000 miles an over 60 passes at the track and so far so good.
My torque management is turned off, not sure if that is good tho, I guess it depends who you talk to, everybody seems to have a different trans recipe.
I'll definitely need some help with the trans tune when I get this back together again.

[G8GTSBM]

I ordered from Greg@pace today,

Full seal kit.
All the friction plates.
3-5-R and 1-2-3-4 steels
1-2-3-4 Waved plate
assorted thickness snap rings

[Virus]

Greg's the man. He's had to send these kits out A LOT lately. Luckily the stock parts are cheap.

[G8GTSBM]

Greg definitely is the man, I gave him some info and he was right on it.
We are definitely lucky to have him as a source for parts.

[Posidon42]

Glad you got the parts and you tore that thing down fast!

Your ghetto trans stand looked just like mine :D Greg is going to be sending out another rebuild kit for me soon too. I am going back to the stock fibers/steels but adding another one to the 3-5-R and 4-5-6. Good luck with the rebuild.

[thebeast]

If you need help with your trans tune, I would have pat g or my tuner look at it for you. Let me know. Either way you any go wrong.

[G8GTSBM]

Glad you got the parts and you tore that thing down fast!

Your ghetto trans stand looked just like mine :D Greg is going to be sending out another rebuild kit for me soon too. I am going back to the stock fibers/steels but adding another one to the 3-5-R and 4-5-6. Good luck with the rebuild.

Thanks for lending me the tools, much appreciated.

Your 1-2-3-4 are ok?

As for being quick, getting started is the hard part, but once I get started I dont want to stop.
If only the wife new the trick to get me started. Lol

[G8GTSBM]

If you need help with your trans tune, I would have pat g or my tuner look at it for you. Let me know. Either way you any go wrong.
Thank you.

[Posidon42]

Sending you a PM re: trans tuning.

[G8-4-Speed]

The 1-2-3-4 clutch is burnt, it did not have enough fluid in the trans. This wasn't the tunes fault. 1-2-3-4 clutch comes on when you put in "drive" and stays on until 5th gear, so shifting and shift time has nothing to do with that clutch pack burning up. You have to overfill the trans a little with a stall. The shallow pan cavitates. You were not slipping from power, it would have done it stock with a stall. When you add a stall, it will fall out of gear in first and second, and slip the clutches without enough fluid(the 1-2-3-4 clutch), maybe third if it is low enough but 4th and up it is usually fine since they are smaller volume clutch drums. Usually 2-6 clutch will be hurt also. So blame the shop for not adding enough fluid not the tune for the issue. If they didn't have enough experience to know how to trouble shoot this or catch it, then they don't have enough experience with tuning these transmission with a stall anyways.

For the record, I tried to help you over two weeks ago. Told you to add two quarts. Now you have a burnt-up trans apart and think you need to retune it for it to be fixed. If you would have added two quarts, you would know what was causing it to drop out of gear.

Don't know who tuned the car or care so don't think I have anyone to defend. As for shift timing, my G8 makes plenty of power, been plenty fast enough at the track, and has been beaten plenty running "0" shift times on my original stock trans running a stall. My shift timing is all in another table so it can be made to work this way. The deep pan and pickup is what will fix buring up the 1-2-3-4 clutch, not changing the shift timing to .25.

Not here to beat anyone up, just don't want to see bad information get passes around. People spend plenty of hard-earned money on these "toys". Even more than they have in some/most cases so avoiding an issue like this is important....

[thebeast]

point well take 4-speed. my tranny is doing awesome with the procharger and cam. would you mind if i posted my tune and you took a look at it?
i would greatly appreciate it.

[G8GTSBM]

Thanks for the info, I haven't driven the car since oct/nov, and that was only 3 or 4 times I started slipping on the way home from the tuner and then I put a quart or a quart and a half in it and it didn't make any difference.
the shift times is just what I've read, like I said everybody seems to have a different way of tuning the trans I'm definitely not a tuner.

I just hope I will get this trans back together without issues mechanical or tune wise and get to enjoy the car again

[G8-4-Speed]

It must have been fried by the time you added the fluid. Everything being right, you can't overpower the trans on street tires. Especially in first and second. You can overpower the tires though......

[STL_G8GT]

You can overpower the tires though......

Yes, you can... :)

[Darkmanx]

thats not what my tranny told me today when i punched it in second and it threw about 7 codes and wouldnt come out of 3rd gear.

[thebeast]

My tranny is not happy right now either. Just copied my tune onto my computer. Now all of a sudden tranny is like stuck in park. I'm in reverse car is showering park. I'm in drive, it shows park. I disconnected the battery for the night. I'll see what happens in the morning

[Darkmanx]

My tranny is not happy right now either. Just copied my tune onto my computer. Now all of a sudden tranny is like stuck in park. I'm in reverse car is showering park. I'm in drive, it shows park. I disconnected the battery for the night. I'll see what happens in the morning

That's because your not using the correct version of hptuners when you pull your tune for the first time its gonna disconnect your transmission

[G8-4-Speed]

thats not what my tranny told me today when i punched it in second and it threw about 7 codes and wouldnt come out of 3rd gear.

If you throw a hard code it will go to limp mode to 3rd gear. It usually has to be excessive slip. Dougs car did it when the 4-5-6 Alto clutched burned up. If you have a stall in your G8, the TCM likes to "dumb" the pressure out of the shifts which leads to burnt up junk. Once I get a trans shifting good with a stall, I have been turning adaptive upshift pressure "off". This means resetting the trans adapt in the scanner, then reload the tune with it off.

[Virus]

This is true for my car so far. My car ran an 11.90@116.58, felt great and then drive it home for a week or so then the 2-3 fell to crap. I changed a bunch of stuff in the tune to include what G8-4-Speed posted and it's been good for several days now with upshifts adaptive pressure turned off. My concern has to do with my converter. I haven't been able to log, but it feels like its locking and unlocking way too much in 4-6 and "pulses". Wondering if a different converter will help. I've had issues ever since installing my FTI 2800-3000.

[G8-4-Speed]

Stall don't like the PWM slip. Clutch material and size is off. The tune was set for 20rpm slip which give better street manner and less "clunky" feel. Same reason GM went to a slip-lock-up so you wouldn't feel it lock and feel all the other "stuff" it covers up. When you adjusted the offset to 90 psi it can create issues if it is still looking slip. Tuning without using lockup kills gas milegae and puts a ton of heat in the trans. Stalls are not daily-driver freindly. I will send you a tune for 100% lockup. Again, 4-5-6 shifts are spread out more so you can go to lockup without lugging, plus this allows you to lockup before 6th to keep heat out of the trans when driving around town.

I wouldn't say the changes you made were a "bunch of crap" in the tune. Same with the 2-3 shift, it didnt fall to crap, just didn't snap anymore at very light throttle from adpative pressure pulling pressure on the shift. It a bit mis-leading. Everything you did was for converter lockup except the upshift pressure adapt. You changed all the slip to "0" in 4-5-6 shifts but then went and turned off lockup in the mph settings in 3, 4, and 5th gear by setting it back to 314/318, and adjusted the TCC offset to 90psi. Plus, you can't just make an adjustment and expect it to relearn instantly. To sum it up, you turned off TCC for 4th and 5th, then raised the base pressure for TCC.

My suggestions would be live with un-refined feel of a 100% lockup, accept with the slight surge of the FTI when left to 20rpm slip which is only when going uphill, or turn it off, put a big cooler on it with a fan, and hope you can keep it from burning up. 245mm stalls are like mini-nuclear heat generators especially in heavy 4000lb+ cars. That the summary of options unless you go back to a stock stall.
The best option for a stall is using the factory 258mm converter for the STS-v 4.4 supercharger caddy. Haven't heard how much or if it will fit the LS flywheel but it is for a 6l80e and wouldn't take much to get it to bolt up. This should work with the factory slip factors without issues.

[Posidon42]

All of the above is why I am putting in a manual trans :)

Seriously though, there is some good info above!

[G8GTSBM]

:beer:
All of the above is why I am putting in a manual trans :)

Seriously though, there is some good info above!

Cheers to that.:beer:

[shane]

Best of luck

[hartigan85]

All of the above is why I am putting in a manual trans :)

Seriously though, there is some good info above!

Hells to the yeah! I will be following suit shortly after you. lol. These 6L80's are junk when you get decent power behind them.

[Virus]

Stall don't like the PWM slip. Clutch material and size is off. The tune was set for 20rpm slip which give better street manner and less "clunky" feel. Same reason GM went to a slip-lock-up so you wouldn't feel it lock and feel all the other "stuff" it covers up. When you adjusted the offset to 90 psi it can create issues if it is still looking slip. Tuning without using lockup kills gas milegae and puts a ton of heat in the trans. Stalls are not daily-driver freindly. I will send you a tune for 100% lockup. Again, 4-5-6 shifts are spread out more so you can go to lockup without lugging, plus this allows you to lockup before 6th to keep heat out of the trans when driving around town.

I wouldn't say the changes you made were a "bunch of crap" in the tune. Same with the 2-3 shift, it didnt fall to crap, just didn't snap anymore at very light throttle from adpative pressure pulling pressure on the shift. It a bit mis-leading. Everything you did was for converter lockup except the upshift pressure adapt. You changed all the slip to "0" in 4-5-6 shifts but then went and turned off lockup in the mph settings in 3, 4, and 5th gear by setting it back to 314/318, and adjusted the TCC offset to 90psi. Plus, you can't just make an adjustment and expect it to relearn instantly. To sum it up, you turned off TCC for 4th and 5th, then raised the base pressure for TCC.

My suggestions would be live with un-refined feel of a 100% lockup, accept with the slight surge of the FTI when left to 20rpm slip which is only when going uphill, or turn it off, put a big cooler on it with a fan, and hope you can keep it from burning up. 245mm stalls are like mini-nuclear heat generators especially in heavy 4000lb+ cars. That the summary of options unless you go back to a stock stall.
The best option for a stall is using the factory 258mm converter for the STS-v 4.4 supercharger caddy. Haven't heard how much or if it will fit the LS flywheel but it is for a 6l80e and wouldn't take much to get it to bolt up. This should work with the factory slip factors without issues.

LOL, I wasn't saying all the stuff I changed was "crap", I was using the word "crap" to signify I made a bunch of changes :D The actual tuning school manual says to set both 4th and 5th apply/release to 318/314 as well which will kill mileage for sure. The 2-3 shift actually did fall to "crap" under just about all conditions, not just light throttle :) The surging was also what I was trying to prevent as it was happening more than just going uphill, it was happening during the daily commute where I just needed slight throttle input to increase speed and didn't want enough throttle input to come out of complete lockup. The manual wasn't specific in stating 245mm converter, it stated the changes for all single disk converters.

[Darkmanx]

How hard is the manual swap

[hartigan85]

Doesn't seem all that hard. Greg seems to be able to acquire all of the necessary components. Just find a take out 5th gen Camaro transmission and swap to the bellhousing to a GXP bellhousing. You have to splice two sets of wires together and load a Holden manual tune so that you can remove the TCM. Only small things I'm trying to figure out now will be if I would need to install and custom wire a reverse switch for the backup lights, most likely I can wire it the same way the GXP does.

[G8 GT V8]

Rick - I think it's time for you to author a tuning guide for these transmissions. I'll be the first in line to send payment for a copy. It would be nice to cover stall and non-stall applications and include the reasoning on why the various parameters get changed.

[G8-4-Speed]

Rick - I think it's time for you to author a tuning guide for these transmissions. I'll be the first in line to send payment for a copy. It would be nice to cover stall and non-stall applications and include the reasoning on why the various parameters get changed.

Tuning is more of an art than science since so many perameters are vague or have an indirect result. Not everyone wants the same transmission tune, some transmission don't respond well to the same settings- mainly when dealing with stalls. Different RPM stalls responding differently to tunes. Most is tied to how the TCM calculates shift prressure. The lack of rpm acceleration really makes a mess of things. Stalls "slip" and tend to "hang" the rpm at one point. Even though the car accelerates, the rpms are not following. This is where adaptive pressure starts retarding the shifts. Have even seen PatG's tunes do the same thing with stalls so it's not the tuner, its the TCM. We only see a fraction of what is really in the programming. What we have in HPT is considered "what is needed" to make adjustments. There is no set answer, everyone wants something different and everyone interprets cars differently. I have tuned transmissions completely different and got close to the same results. There is still too much guessing since "What is great for one drive" doesn't like to stay. I raped Shawns car for two weeks after a "write-entire" and never once did it have a bad shift. The only difference is the amount of time the tune stayed in without a re-flash. Basically any "stall" type tune seems to get "DUMBED-DOWN" by the computer when adaptive pressure for upshifts is left "on". This is only the "current" new trend as I'm sure another "trick" is soon to follow. Or maybe it will have its own side-effects that haven't surfaced yet. Secondly, picking up when you are fighting something in the tune that is not related to your adjustments. Tuning behind different tuners even when turned back stock can be a headache. Another point with transmissions is some settings seem to be treated like a "fixed" scale like fueling. If the transmission is calculating a -10% in pressure, it tends to carry this across the board. So I like to keep the part throttle shift scales as low PSI as possible and leave the shift pressure up in the last scale. Its is nothing to see a 3000 stall put part-throttle shift go to 300 ft/lbs calculated Tq. But WOT is usually only 390s' -430's which is one scale away and the last pressure table for shifts. My point is, even the "tuning school" book is someones "best guess" at what some "feels" is the best to get good results. Still too many theroy's than facts and too many adjustmenst that don't change as "advertised". When I can change a shift pressure to 250psi and it delievers a tire ripping shift everytime, then its fact but when it still shifts like grandmas station wagon I am blowing the wistle and throw the bs flag. I'm all for getting dirty and throwing in a valve body "shift-kit" and calling it a day.

I could write the best book in the world but it wont turn people into tuners, there is more to it than that. It's like teaching calculus to someone who doesn't know basic math. People have to understand engine dynamics in its basic form before throwing a computer at it to have the ability to be a good tuner, same for transmissions. Same fight I have with camshafts, guys want a big cam with good street manners of a small cam that makes more power. It doesn't exists, its only a mental preception that people buy into with slogans and dyno sheets. Guys tend to have a made a decision on what they want, it doesn't matter who has the "right" answer. As long as someone has the answer closest to what they are thinking, that makes it the best answer.

[G8GTSBM]

That's some excellent info, Thank you.

[Doug Hilliard]

Hells to the yeah! I will be following suit shortly after you. lol. These 6L80's are junk when you get decent power behind them.

Don't want to go off topic too bad but I'd like to add my experience with high horsepower and the 6l80e. Rick did my engine mods at 54k miles as I recall. My trans was doing fine except for a 4-5 shift issue that was a torn seal. I decided to have Rick fix it and figured I'd have him upgrade the clutches since I had lots of horsepower; I went with Alto clutches (big mistake!) from Century. When Rick took the stock clutches out they looked remarkably good. I had done a very severe road course event at VIR and had several drag passes plus driving it every day. Due to the Alto clutches, Rick had to go into it again and rebuild it with stock clutches plus additional elements but I suspect if we had simply put it back together with the original stock clutches after fixing the seal, it would still be just fine. I know tuning has a large impact on it with added horsepower and fortunately I had Rick as my installer and tuner. Anyway, long story short, I have over 82k miles on it now and the trans is great (along with the rest of the car). I wouldn't dissuade anyone from doing a manual (kind of intrigues me as well!) but just wanted to provide another experience!

[G8GTSBM]

UPS just dropped of my rebuild parts, and I'm hopefully going to start tomorrow.

[Posidon42]

I was just going to send you a PM to ask how things were going. Keep me posted on how things are going. If it is going to take you past this weekend to complete, you will probably have to hang on to the tools until after I move. I don't want stuff showing up at the house if I am not there anymore.

[G8GTSBM]

I was just going to send you a PM to ask how things were going. Keep me posted on how things are going. If it is going to take you past this weekend to complete, you will probably have to hang on to the tools until after I move. I don't want stuff showing up at the house if I am not there anymore.
I'll be posting up some pictures and I'll keep in touch. Thanks.

[G8GTSBM]

Made some good progress today.

All the new clutches are installed in the clutch drums and clearanced with the appropriate snap rings.

1-4 clutches
http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/g8gtsbm/G8%20Trans/2012-05-02_13-00-27_521.jpg
3-5-R
http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/g8gtsbm/G8%20Trans/2012-05-02_13-17-51_814.jpg
4-5-6
http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/g8gtsbm/G8%20Trans/2012-05-02_13-36-13_691.jpg
Low and R
http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/g8gtsbm/G8%20Trans/2012-05-02_13-54-47_397.jpg
2-6
http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/g8gtsbm/G8%20Trans/2012-05-02_13-57-10_380.jpg

[G8-4-Speed]

1-2-3-4 looks well used.... should be good as new when your done!

[G8-4-Speed]

One more thing, you could have put the 3-5-R and the 4-5-6 drum on the pump and put air to the drums thru the pump passages to leak-check and check clearances.

[G8GTSBM]

Thanks, I'm going to check that out, I thought I seen a picture somewhere of that being done but I wasn't sure.

[FloydBubble]

We have had some issues with 6l80s having cracked welds on the 1-2-3-4/3-5-R housings. Hell GM now offers the whole housing assembled and ready to go. I have always been intimidated by transmission builds. The trans guy here at the shop is going to make me build mine since GM warranty pays so little.

[G8GTSBM]

It's back together, I finally got some time today and energy in my 7 day work week schedule.

Now I just got to get it back in the car.

http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/g8gtsbm/G8%20Trans/2012-05-08_12-39-36_264.jpg

http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/g8gtsbm/G8%20Trans/2012-05-08_14-26-00_605.jpg

[BigV8]

Looks great. Are you adding the Camaro deep pan and wide mouth filter?

[G8GTSBM]

Looks great. Are you adding the Camaro deep pan and wide mouth filter?
Yes I am, you can see the difference between the G8 pan and the Camaro pan if you go back to post#2

[Posidon42]

looks good :thumbsup:

[G8GTSBM]

Trans is in the car but I m not finished hooking everything back up yet.

[G8GTSBM]

The G8 is back on the road and the trans is working great.
Made some tweaks with the shift times, pressures, and torque management and it feels perfect.

[STL_G8GT]

Congrats!!

[Darkmanx]

congrads now do mine.

[G8GTSBM]

Bring it over. Lol

[Posidon42]

He can't, he needs to send my tools back :p

[G8GTSBM]

He can't, he needs to send my tools back :p
Did ya get my PM?

[Posidon42]

Yeah, just pulling your chain ;) Congrats again, it feels good knowing you were able to do it yourself. So, have any advice or tip/tricks for others wanting to do this?

[G8GTSBM]

Probably the biggest tip to avoid disaster is when you are getting the trans up into position to install, drop it back down some and make sure the torque converter is fully engaged into the pump one last time.
I decided to check mine one last time before I bolted up to the engine and found it slid out.

[AVIDMOTION]

subscribe

[Rawyzf]

This is good stuff. I have a feeling I'm not far away from needing to do this.