I have a Theory on the Steering Wheel Shake

[SpeedRacerX]

OK, this could be a long shot but here goes...

Sitting stopped at a red light coming home from work. I again noticed what has always bothered me - that I can move my steering wheel left and right, without really affecting the movement of the tires. Like there is extra "play."

I got home and looked into this further.

Car in Drive, foot on brake, tires/wheel straight. I had my son move the steering wheel while I inspected things. E-brake engaged just in case.

Observations:
1. I can lightly move my steering wheel left and right about 1/8" to 3/16" before the front wheels and tires begin to move left & right. It feels like there is a rubbery or spongyness to that slight movement.
2. The distance it moves is similar to what I see/feel when my steering wheel shakes while driving at 60/70+ mph.
3. Under the hood, I could see that even with this very slight movement of the steering wheel (and the front wheels/tires are not yet turning (visually or by feel)); I CAN see that the steering shaft is moving when the steering wheel is doing its tiny movement. Again, tires and wheels are NOT moving but the steering shaft IS moving.
4. Even at the bolt and to the section of the shaft below the bolt that goes into the steering gear (or whatever its called down there) it IS moving slightly.
5. So, this means there is NO slop up in the car at the steering wheel or down through the steering shaft.
6. It also probably means that there is slop or play in the "system" somewhere between the area in the steering arm that goes down into the steering unit/gear AND the wheel hub.
7. Somewhere in between COULD be the culprit.
8. Gear play? Soft bushing? Stretched/fatigued piece of metal somewhere? Another weekened component of the lower steering system or suspension??

I think this "play" that I feel is EXACTLY the distance of the movement I feel when it shakes at highway speeds.

Getting rid of this "play" may cure the steering wheel shake.

Now, that's just my theory and I could be VERY wrong.

But if it's possible, what COULD have worn out in that system that we/I could look into? What could be improved or replaced to eliminate that extra play?

Now the other question becomes, is the "play" and fixing the "play" the root cause of the shake or just where the cause shows up because there's "play" indicating a bad part somewhere else not related to the steering system i.e. LCA, warped rotor, etc????

What do you guys think?

[polo]

I thought about the same thing, because I have the same steering wheel play when the car is parked. I just don't know if that play is normal, or if the wheels are supposed to move as soon as the steering wheel turns. Some play has to be normal, but I don't know how much is too much.

[grandprixrollsout]

i agree. I know mine sometimes does a jiggle, sometimes not. However i noticed it most in the summer weather (of 30 degree Celcius) vs winter weather (-20*).

Does anyone have a variance based on temp?

[todds87ss]

What you're describing is tie rod wear. It can cause steering wheel shake, but the amount of shake or vibration changes in turns. (just my experience in other cars - not g8 specific)

[dandragonrage]

It can be the rack as well.

[WickedMom]

I vote normal rack and pinion movement.

[SpeedRacerX]

What you're describing is tie rod wear. It can cause steering wheel shake, but the amount of shake or vibration changes in turns. (just my experience in other cars - not g8 specific)

Thank you. And someone else also mentioned control arms and radius rods. Sorry for this dumb question but what is the difference between the 4 control arms we have, a radius rod, and a tie rod? Where are they on the car? Can all of these be had aftermarket yet? I don't think so, right?

[polo]

What you're describing is tie rod wear. It can cause steering wheel shake, but the amount of shake or vibration changes in turns. (just my experience in other cars - not g8 specific)

This is actually pretty interesting because sometimes I won't have the shakes when going straight, but it will start shaking as soon as the road begins to turn. It also works the other way around, where the steering wheel will be shaking and will stop shaking once I begin to turn the wheel.

[SpeedRacerX]

This is actually pretty interesting because sometimes I won't have the shakes when going straight, but it will start shaking as soon as the road begins to turn. It also works the other way around, where the steering wheel will be shaking and will stop shaking once I begin to turn the wheel.

Yup, same here.

[dandragonrage]

Thank you. And someone else also mentioned control arms and radius rods. Sorry for this dumb question but what is the difference between the 4 control arms we have, a radius rod, and a tie rod? Where are they on the car? Can all of these be had aftermarket yet? I don't think so, right?

Control arms and radius rods keep the suspension centered, and keep the forces exerted by driving from grabbing the wheels and yanking them whichever way. They are engineered to only allow the types of movement that are actually desired. Tie rods connect the steering rack to the wheels (well, to the knuckle) and transfer the steering action.

Control arms exist on all of the wheels and can look different from car to car, and can also be called different things (such as "A arms" which are generally used on double wishbone suspension setups). Tie rods always exist on the front wheels and, for some vehicles, also on the rear (4 wheel steering vehicles).

That's a pretty basic explanation - I'm sure there are sites like Wikipedia with lots more information if you're that curious.

[SpeedRacerX]

OK, let me get some terminology straight because I think certain parts can have two names:

1. Radius Rod is aka the Front xxx Control Arm? This is the curvy one.
2. Front Lower Control Arm Inner. Not sure of another name. This is the straight-looking one.
Both of these above are what can be had from GM in the 4 arm kit or what Spohn might release. Right?
3. Tie Rod and the Tie Rod End is the piece that goes from the steering unit to the spindle or knuckle that actually move the wheel left and right. Correct?

God, I feel like an idiot.

[dandragonrage]

1. Yes
2. Yes and yes.
3. Yes. 2 pieces, by the way. Inner tie rod, outer tie rod [end]. "Tie rod" by itself generally refers to both pieces. Outers usually wear out a lot faster due to the type of ball joint and the movement required. Inners should only need to be replaced maybe half as often as outers, or even less. But they can/do go bad as well.

Do consider what WickedMom said as well - a small amount of play may be considered normal and may not even be possible to eliminate.

[SRG963]

Here's my thread on OEM front LCA's and RR's. http://forum.grrrr8.net/showthread.php?t=25150
No telling when Spohn will release theirs.

With my setup, I have no wheel shimy/shake on smooth roads, and there is 0 play in my steering wheel.

[hayabusa160]

im not going to lie i hate the front suspension design on this car.
i came from cars with a double wish bone set up and it was a rock solid design that worked great on the track and ride quality was great. i have able to run neg 3deg of front camber and still have pretty even tire wear.
i notice the tire pressure affects the wheel vibrations also.
i have all poly mounts on the front end. while it feels nice and tight there is still some slop. im going to play with the caster alittle bit to see if that will solve it.

[dandragonrage]

I'm not a fan of MacPherson struts myself, but for that sort of setup, our front suspension is actually good. I think the Camaros got the double wishbone setup, though...

[BlackGT5]

I did not notice any "slop" in my steering wheel when I installed the GXP wheel. Replacing the LCA's did help my steeering wheel shake though.

[hulkss]

What do you guys think?

What's the offset on your front wheels?

[SpeedRacerX]

What's the offset on your front wheels?

+38 19x8.5 running a 255

[SpeedRacerX]

Oh and today, after a 30+ minute drive my car finally did something in has NEVER done in 35,700 miles.

When stopped but in gear, turning the wheel to the right leads to a creaking noise coming from somewhere near the passenger side strut tower. Does not make the noise turning left.

Then while driving for another 5 minutes and then later for another 30 minutes back home, the front end was making all kinds of creaking, squeaking, and tapping noises - all coming from the front suspension, mostly passenger side, and mainly at low to medium speeds. Suspension needs to be warmed up for this to happen evidently because it doesn't do it after sitting for a while as I found out tonight when I tried to show Monty - car needs to be driven for about 20+ minutes before the creaks, squeaks, taps, and snaps start.

Are these signs of the strut bushing failure or control arms?? I'm thinking strut bushings...but not sure.

Maybe the shaking steering wheel was a sign this was coming.

With 35,700 miles, I guess I should call the dealer ASAP to have them take a look!

[hulkss]

+38 19x8.5 running a 255

You have increased the steering scrub radius by 10mm from stock by using less offset. This may contribute significantly to steering wheel shake - especially if you have a little play in the system.

[todds87ss]

I would replace the following as a start (first, because you will like the results, and second to try to stop the insanity):
Strut bushings/bearings
Radius rod bushings
steering rack bushings

I believe that all are available from BMR in poly (the only way to go IMO). Your call as to whether or not to swap struts/springs while you are in there, but the parts listed are not cost prohibitive.

[SpeedRacerX]

Thanks guys. As much as it makes me nervous, I scheduled it to go into the dealer next Wed AM. Let's see what they say (under warranty) and go from there.
I know at some point, I'll be replacing everything you guys have mentioned.

[Panzer Leader]

Without a doubt this issue (Front Suspension) should be part of the Tech seminars at the National Meet.

[Monty]

Squeek, squeek. squeek...feed your mouse.

He took me for a ride to try to duplicate the noise. After about 15 min. sitting at a light he turned his wheel and it sounded like a rubber squeek when he turned his wheel back and fourth. I think its the strut bearings, maybe he destroyed the bearings and they are locked up so the strut is turning the bushing and you would get a squeeking sound from the rubber twisting on the metal.

Just a guess.

[Napalm]

speed. Before you go too far. are you sure the road you are on is smooth. it may look smooth but isn't. Also is it level. if it angles to one side it can cause your steering wheel to drift.

I say this for the following. Have you ever had the car aligned, and if so to which specs (stock or Pedders)? Are your tires new.

There is slop in the rack it is there on purpose and 1/8 - 3/8 is about normal As far as I know. This car however is very sensitive to road conditions (and wheel bearing conditions). so any ripples etc in the road transfer in, likewise any inperfections in your tire balance or wheel lug torque transfers. (this is the wheel bearing condition I mentioned).

So before getting too far in, get on new pavement. find your shake speed (I assume it mostly occurs around certain speed ranges). Also your squeek, could be worn strut mounts and or bearing. this will throw off the alignment.

[SpeedRacerX]

speed. Before you go too far. are you sure the road you are on is smooth. it may look smooth but isn't. Also is it level. if it angles to one side it can cause your steering wheel to drift.

I say this for the following. Have you ever had the car aligned, and if so to which specs (stock or Pedders)? Are your tires new.

There is slop in the rack it is there on purpose and 1/8 - 3/8 is about normal As far as I know. This car however is very sensitive to road conditions (and wheel bearing conditions). so any ripples etc in the road transfer in, likewise any inperfections in your tire balance or wheel lug torque transfers. (this is the wheel bearing condition I mentioned).

So before getting too far in, get on new pavement. find your shake speed (I assume it mostly occurs around certain speed ranges). Also your squeek, could be worn strut mounts and or bearing. this will throw off the alignment.

Shake speed is 65+ mph - all the way to 170 then it smoothes out again. Just kidding about the 170. Very noticeable at 75.

I've had this for a year+. Any road surface, yes flat, smooth, etc. Something is not right, I'll try to take a video. I will buy into what you and wickedmom have said about steering slop being normal. If so, ok. The normal slop then might just make the shake more obvious with the root cause still unknown.

The car was aligned last year when the staggered setup went on brand new. Tires were balanced. Twice actually. I used stock specs for alignment. Used till Nov, removed, put back on this April. I have not gotten an alignment since they were put back on in April.

I wonder is I should use Pedders specs or Caddy CTS-V specs for alignment since my car is about the same weight and rides on the same exact "staggered" wheel and tire combos??

Last year, I still had the shake even with a fresh balancing and new alignment. At the time, my alignment specs (after) were shared with the members here and they looked fine.

I have never had a road force balancing done. Maybe that would make a difference.

Dealer will be checking out the creaking noise next Wed. Seems clear that it's coming from the area near the front passenger strut.

[hulkss]

I have never had a road force balancing done.

That can make a huge difference. Most tires are not round or uniform in radial stiffness.

[Napalm]

So your new aftermarket wheels were never road force balanced.? not having driven your car. Lack of a road force balance on the wheels is a huge warning sign to me. Where do you go that doesn't do a road force balance these days.

I bought my car second hand, had some wheel shake at 65-71, and at 32-35 (harmonics tend to re-occur at speeds that have multiples BTW). So I had the tires balanced, then had the car aligned. No more shake. Also

here is the thing, that shake and vibration can work into your wheel bearings (after 10's of 1000's of miles) and cause they to permanently vibrate. Get re-balanced. before you go chasing parts.

Then you eliminate one big variable to the problem. OH and you might also have one out of round tire (it does happen sometimes). If that was on a front wheel, it would cause shake.

[SpeedRacerX]

I agree with what you are saying. But just so you know the shake occured even with my stock wheels and tires. Dealer didn't have the RFB equipment and wouldn't send it out to get done. I didn't fight it at the time because I was worn out from going to my dealer so much for the vibration TSB which was resolved with a new driveshaft and because my new wheels and tires were coming anyway. Also, when my new wheels and tires came in (unmounted) I could not find anyone locally that did RFB'ing. OK, so I only called about 10 places but it's not easy to find.

Ironically, I was visually inspecting my tires the other day and I can't believe how nearly perfect they are wearing...

Let me get the strut issue/creak fixed next Wed and then I'll take matters into my own hands on the wheels/tires/alignment and then go from there. I did this last year with brand new equipment and alignment (sans the RFB) and still had a slight left pull and steering wheel shake. I really don't think it's the tires.

My post is probably one of 400 posts about still having steering wheel shake even after all kinds of tires swaps, switches, rotations, replacements, etc.

[hulkss]

I could not find anyone locally that did RFB'ing.

Look here: Locate a GSP9700 (http://www.gsp9700.com/pub/search/findgsp9700.cfm)

There's 57 of 'em within 10 miles of where I work.

[SpeedRacerX]

Look here: Locate a GSP9700 (http://www.gsp9700.com/pub/search/findgsp9700.cfm)

There's 57 of 'em within 10 miles of where I work.

Excellent, thank you! There are 36 within 10 miles of my house but 23 of them are at dealers or technical schools. Leaves me with a good dozen to target. I noticed one on the list I pass by every time I take the kids to school. Who knew!? LOL.

[SpeedRacerX]

hulkss, should I get the alignment done first or get the wheels/tires RFB'd first??

[Panzer Leader]

My guess would be the balancing first. There are two people here in New Orleans who still balance the wheels on the car. To me this is the best. Normally it is only done on rear wheel drive cars. It takes everything into consideration.

[hulkss]

Just go in the order to save time and money. If you need new suspension or steering parts, do that first. That will force an alignment to be done. If no repair work, then the alignment is probably good. If you think something is out of spec. many alignment shops will check it for free and only charge if an adjustment is needed. Then get the road force balance. This is done off the car.

Check It Out Here (http://www.gsp9700.com/pub/features/how.cfm)

[Napalm]

not sure about where you are. but around here Firestone stores offer life time alignment on a car. its like paying for an alignment twice but when you get it that third time you are coming out ahead.

I had my GTO aligned 6 times, once per year. I have done the same thing on the G8. Round one done.

Also yes replace those strut tops, and get an alignment. I really doubt your ball joint or steering joint are already worn out. Really doubt. not sure how you drive but you just don't have the miles to do that. Even with all the noise about how weak the G8 parts are. (which I have some doubt BTW, shipping issues not withstanding).

Something to consider. When the car is in the air, have the play checked. I bet the shop will say its within normal. (again, this idea is site unseen)

[SpeedRacerX]

Well, at dealer right now. Service Writer came out and told me that a) I have a worn ball joint and b) front rotors need to be cut. Guess this could explain some of the steering slop, exaggerated steering shake, and car consistently wanting to go left with slightly cocked wheel no matter how many times I've had the alignment done! Tech does not like how off center the wheel is (even though it's tiny) and feels the bad ball joint might be causing that too.

Initially they said the tie rod was worn too thus causing the creak coming from the strut area but now they are saying it's ok and really the ball joint causing the noise. Hmmm.

Can a bad ball joint make a creaking noise like a worn strut bushing makes??

Parts are in Michigan. LCA's I guess?

They are also ordering me a new steering wheel since my leather is peeling up and trying to figure out why my AC stopped blowing cold a couple days ago. It's "only" 93'ish here. LOL.

[Napalm]

Yes a ball joint can cause creaking. The steering wheel thing is probably due to adjusting the tie rods every time it was aligned for pulling to one direction.

How many miles on the car again? I would also worry about crushed strut mounts. look to see if your strut caps are sitting above the towers, and if they fall down with the car is lifted. Strut mounts affect your camber setting drastically. or they can I should say. sometimes you get lucky and they are both crushing at the same amount.

[Chewy]

I too have this shake in the wheel. It started when I put the summer tires back on this spring. It doesn't do it all the time. I actually notice it more after hammering through a tight corner and a high speed.

I am sure it'll go away when I sell it... The front suspension on this car is pure shit! It's one of the reasons I wouldn't/won't buy a Camaro... One P.O.S. is enough for me.

Chris

[SpeedRacerX]

Yes a ball joint can cause creaking. The steering wheel thing is probably due to adjusting the tie rods every time it was aligned for pulling to one direction.

How many miles on the car again? I would also worry about crushed strut mounts. look to see if your strut caps are sitting above the towers, and if they fall down with the car is lifted. Strut mounts affect your camber setting drastically. or they can I should say. sometimes you get lucky and they are both crushing at the same amount.

That could make sense on the tie rod being adjusted way out to compensate for the failing ball joint.

36,100 miles.

On flat level ground with wheel straight, both strut top rubbers are raised up by about .250-.375" with the passenger side even looking like it's sitting a different angle than the driver side one. I have not raised the front yet to see if they drop back down when raised. I'll try that. "Monty" just replaced his last Friday and his G8 has half the miles of mine and his were already squashed down by a little bit.

I'll probably deal with the strut bushings myself. Been wanting to upgrade the stock struts & shocks anyway.

Back from dealer. Turned into a diagnostic visit since they had to order parts. That's fine. Dealer is trying very hard to make the car right. Maybe they just like the bagels. LOL.

They ordered the 4-arm LCA kit from GM, an upper AC line (which turns out was leaking), and a new steering wheel.
When the parts come in and they do the job, they said they will be doing a complete alignment also. Parts are supposedly a week out.

Dealer wanted $175 to cut the two front rotors. I'll wait on this and decide about rotors after this other work is complete and see how it all feels.

I feel I just moved a big step closer today to getting this car back to feeling "tight" again.

[SpeedRacerX]

I too have this shake in the wheel. It started when I put the summer tires back on this spring. It doesn't do it all the time. I actually notice it more after hammering through a tight corner and a high speed.

I am sure it'll go away when I sell it... The front suspension on this car is pure shit! It's one of the reasons I wouldn't/won't buy a Camaro... One P.O.S. is enough for me.

Chris

Oh! Your post just reminded me of something. While I was sitting in the waiting room, I heard another person talking to their service writer about............................................. steering wheel shake. I have no idea whether the person had a Buick, GMC, or Pontiac but I thought that was sadly amazing. I was going to ask what they were driving but forgot.

[Napalm]

You can get rotors cut for much less than that. But I really would like to see your LCA's and the condition of the joints. I can't believe they are worn already. Could happen though.

Keep us posted.

[SpeedRacerX]

The sounds coming from the front end are getting worse every day. Can't wait till these are replaced.

[matthewo]

it has a lot to do with the offset of aftermarket wheels and the tire pressure your running.

i had no problems at all with shake until i put on my aftermarket wheels on. at first when i had my breytons 19x8.5 with 30mm offset the shaking was pretty bad. i ended up getting forgestar 19x9 with 35mm offset, and the shaking was a bit better, but still there sometimes. i had the tires rebalanced roadforced. even brought it back a few times. i now keep a good eye on my tire pressures, keep the front at around 36-38psi, and i hardly ever have any shaking... i found the more pressure the run the less shaking you get.

its deffently a problem with the balance of something on your rotating mass. wheels, tires, or rotor. the thing is, this car is soooo pickey when it comes to harmonics in the front suspension that any small bit of wobble will induce steering wheel shake. sometimes the correct poly bushing will help, then other times they may hurt due to no being able to "soak" up any of the slop.

i would deffently also check the front strut mount bushings and make sure they are not collapsed.

[SpeedRacerX]

it has a lot to do with the offset of aftermarket wheels and the tire pressure your running.

i had no problems at all with shake until i put on my aftermarket wheels on. at first when i had my breytons 19x8.5 with 30mm offset the shaking was pretty bad. i ended up getting forgestar 19x9 with 35mm offset, and the shaking was a bit better, but still there sometimes. i had the tires rebalanced roadforced. even brought it back a few times. i now keep a good eye on my tire pressures, keep the front at around 36-38psi, and i hardly ever have any shaking... i found the more pressure the run the less shaking you get.

its deffently a problem with the balance of something on your rotating mass. wheels, tires, or rotor. the thing is, this car is soooo pickey when it comes to harmonics in the front suspension that any small bit of wobble will induce steering wheel shake. sometimes the correct poly bushing will help, then other times they may hurt due to no being able to "soak" up any of the slop.

i would deffently also check the front strut mount bushings and make sure they are not collapsed.

Ball joint is bad. Tie rod/end were fine. Dealer will be doing the 4-arm LCA kit shortly. Strut bushings are collapsed. They are replacing them also and the bearings. They are doing an alignment too.

Once that is all done and I see what I'm working with at that point, then I can look into my wheels/tires/rotors. After that, there won't be much else to replace. LOL.
Driveshaft was replaced a year ago and that DID stop the harmonic vibration I was getting.

This will get sorted out very soon!