Destroyed lifter and cam lobe [Archive] - GRRRR8.net

DetroitSpeedJunkie

03-03-2011, 07:03 AM

A few weeks back I started hearing a ticking noise coming from my engine. The tick only occurred at idle and would go away as the rpm increased. The lifters and the cam were just pulled from the engine and this is what was found.

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa389/DetroitMuscleAssociation/IMG_2318.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa389/DetroitMuscleAssociation/IMG_2319.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa389/DetroitMuscleAssociation/IMG_2327.jpg

I'm still wondering what the cause was, car has 42k on it.

Voice of Reason

03-03-2011, 07:25 AM

Stock cam and lifters?

wreckwriter

03-03-2011, 07:26 AM

Stock parts?

Crazy Paul

03-03-2011, 07:35 AM

Listing all your engine mods and how high you rev it may help.
Also a couple more pics of both flanks of the lobe.

DetroitSpeedJunkie

03-03-2011, 08:17 AM

Stock cam and lifters. I believe with the tune the highest it was spinning was 6200rpm. I can get some more pics tomorrow since I'm at work right now.

Stock motor.

GeoffA

03-03-2011, 09:19 AM

What are you doing to replace, an upgrade or keep stock?

Asking because I have all my stock parts from my cam upgrade last summer. I was thinking of putting the parts up for sale...

DetTigers

03-03-2011, 09:30 AM

What are you doing to replace, an upgrade or keep stock?

Asking because I have all my stock parts from my cam upgrade last summer. I was thinking of putting the parts up for sale...

Wouldn't it be covered under warranty?

Likwid

03-03-2011, 09:32 AM

DetroitSpeedJunkie

03-03-2011, 09:38 AM

What are you doing to replace, an upgrade or keep stock?

Asking because I have all my stock parts from my cam upgrade last summer. I was thinking of putting the parts up for sale...

I am in the middle of upgrading right now. The only scary part was not knowing if any metal was still in there and having to consider the cost of tearing down the motor. Luckily when the oil pan was dropped it was clean so the oil filter must have caught everything-also no scoring on the cylinder walls.

DetroitSpeedJunkie

03-03-2011, 09:44 AM

Wouldn't it be covered under warranty?

I was thinking about this too. One thing about me is when a part fails or needs to be replaced, I don't like going with the same part so I upgrade whenever possible. Also, I was trying to think of how to explain to the dealer that the cam and lifter was bad? I'm sure they would ask me how I knew and also the motor doesn't tick anymore. It ticked 2 weeks ago Friday and then the following week randomly one day, therefore they wouldn't be able to reproduce the issue.

I don't think they would go for the lifters and cam being taken out by someone other than them and then turning around and asking them to warranty it lol. If I wasn't upgrading, I would have taken it to the dealer first though.

fiveoh

03-03-2011, 10:02 AM

my car is in the shop for the same exact thing right now, I emailed GM about it and asked if they knew what the cause is. A lot of people have been having this same issue. When they get back to me I'll let you know

This is what mine sounded like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO3AvIyaUjc

I've seen a few other videos of g8s that sounded like that, always shortly followed by replacing lifters/and or cam. I think the shitty DOD lifters are to blame.

Likwid

03-03-2011, 10:07 AM

I think it might be something else, my buddy that has a 09 SBM had the same thing happen to his and he had a DOD delete cam and lifters when it happened. When it happened to his he called CompCams to see if there was anything they could do and they told them that they have seen this same exact issue happen to a lot of cars

DetroitSpeedJunkie

03-03-2011, 10:07 AM

my car is in the shop for the same exact thing right now, I emailed GM about it and asked if they knew what the cause is. A lot of people have been having this same issue. When they get back to me I'll let you know

This is what mine sounded like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO3AvIyaUjc

That is pretty similar to what mine sounded like before I took it in. Glad u got yours to the dealer and hopefully they don't give you a hard time about fixing it.

DetroitSpeedJunkie

03-03-2011, 10:09 AM

Likwid

03-03-2011, 10:09 AM

so far i haven't had any issues with them covering it under warranty, I'm going down there today so hopefully I can get some more information

Likwid

03-03-2011, 10:10 AM

I would hope that it doesnt happen again after the swap is complete. Then the warranty would really be out of the question :-(

Hopefully it wont, I know that I would be furious if it happened again

DetroitSpeedJunkie

03-03-2011, 10:30 AM

so far i haven't had any issues with them covering it under warranty, I'm going down there today so hopefully I can get some more information

I didn't think I would have a problem covering it under warranty either if need be but I took mine to the speed shop first to have them do the cam swap and that's when we found that it could be very serious if there was metal in the bottom end. If I had taken it to the dealer first Iim sure it wouldn't be an issue.

Likwid

03-03-2011, 10:41 AM

I didn't think I would have a problem covering it under warranty either if need be but I took mine to the speed shop first to have them do the cam swap and that's when we found that it could be very serious if there was metal in the bottom end. If I had taken it to the dealer first Iim sure it wouldn't be an issue.

agreed, pending what mods you have if any and what the dealer saw. I dont think that you would have had an issue either

bradshow

03-03-2011, 01:05 PM

Crazy. Same thing that happened to my car. I really wish I'd have just went with a DOD delete rather than stock. Oh well. Here's to a speedy recovery.

Sent from my iPhone4

-Ray-

03-03-2011, 02:45 PM

I wonder who ground the cam for your engine. It has the worse fillet radii I ever seen.

DetroitSpeedJunkie

03-03-2011, 02:52 PM

I wonder who ground the cam for your engine. It has the worse fillet radii I ever seen.

Are you referring to my car?

-Ray-

03-03-2011, 02:56 PM

Are you referring to my car?

Yes Sir. Even Detroit Diesel sands and polishes the fillet radii.

DetroitSpeedJunkie

03-03-2011, 03:15 PM

Yes Sir. Even Detroit Diesel sands and polishes the fillet radii.

You know the pictures are of the stock cam and lifters right? Meaning it is the exact same build that originally came in all of our G8s.

Just sayin

Crazy Paul

03-03-2011, 03:18 PM

I'm still wondering what the cause was, car has 42k on it. Stock cam and lifters. I believe with the tune the highest it was spinning was 6200rpm. Stock motor.
Well that rules out what I was first thinking.....unless you've got one particularly weak & lazy valve spring. More pics of the cam lobe would confirm or quash.
The most likely cause would be defective heat treatment of the hard facing during manufacture of the cam or lifters. Most likely cam.

I wonder who ground the cam for your engine. It has the worse fillet radii I ever seen.
Stevie Wonder now works for GM.
More of his work below.....oh, it's slightly defective in way of lobes also.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/PerthPurplePenguin/car%20parts/L76/L76cam2.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/PerthPurplePenguin/car%20parts/L76/L76cam1.jpg

-Ray-

03-03-2011, 04:13 PM

You know the pictures are of the stock cam and lifters right? Meaning it is the exact same build that originally came in all of our G8s.

Just sayin

LOL. Yes I know it's a stock cam.

My guess is the roller couldn't keep up with the cam speed and galled it a little. If it doesn't roll, just one transfer of material is enough to continue until it comes apart.

Crazy Paul

03-03-2011, 05:57 PM

My guess is the roller couldn't keep up with the cam speed and galled it a little. If it doesn't roll, just one transfer of material is enough to continue until it comes apart.

Maybe if it was caught in very early stages you'd get a result like pics above. I'd expect a partially siezed roller to give a more wiped pattern than the flaked pattern you see on his lobe.

Galling you'd associate with poor hardening from manufacture
or you can get valve lofting where the valve spring does not maintain lifter to lobe contact at all times. You'd get this if you had weak springs or a badly specced aftermarket valvetrain where harmonics were degrading valve spring efficiency badly. With lofting you'd be likely to see galling on both sides of the lobe peak, from where the lifter "lifted off" and came crashing back down. Impacts break up the lobe surface gradually until you get the galled look.

Pic below was one of mine, consensus from a very well respected guy from Crane Cams was that it looked like classic "assymetric lofting"

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/PerthPurplePenguin/car%20parts/P1010153.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/PerthPurplePenguin/car%20parts/P1010154.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/PerthPurplePenguin/car%20parts/49.jpg

DetroitSpeedJunkie

03-03-2011, 07:02 PM

The roller still rolls, just has material missing from it. Some of the guys at the shop were saying that it was probably the heat treatment too.

I get to pick her up tomorrow. I'm excited lol:brock:

I keep telling myself "do not destroy your tires, do not destroy your tires"

I'm hoping I am able to take it easy but I will probably just drive it like I stole it :-)

Likwid

03-03-2011, 07:17 PM

I may be wrong but... I think that the problem is in the L76 block, There are way too many people wiping the same lobe on the cam for it to be lifter related, possibly cam but I would figure the cam is being heat treated on a convener in a factory (not sure, just assuming) so the whole cam should have this issue and not just the rear lobe. My .02

ULTRA Z

03-04-2011, 09:44 AM

mines in the shop now same problem i think i will fill in details as it gets brokin down i'm letting the warrenty fix mine :( if it is in the L76 block i will start saving for a LS3 416 but my car as of now is stock with CAI by rotofab tuned by livernois shifts at 6200 they believe it is cylinder number 6 at the moment but time will tell. my car has 54,000 miles on it as of now.

ULTRA Z

03-04-2011, 09:48 AM

my car is in the shop for the same exact thing right now, I emailed GM about it and asked if they knew what the cause is. A lot of people have been having this same issue. When they get back to me I'll let you know

This is what mine sounded like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO3AvIyaUjc

i had this noise before thats the pulley the lifters is a tap not a cherp i went through 3 stock pulleys before i got one that stayed together

Likwid

03-04-2011, 10:36 AM

i had this noise before thats the pulley the lifters is a tap not a cherp i went through 3 stock pulleys before i got one that stayed together

This is not a pulley noise, I am a mechanic and dont like letting other people touch my car, I only bring it to the dealer when the cost of repair deems so. When this started, I thought it was the same thing so I pulled both belts and it made the same noise. took it to the dealer and they found out that the rear cam lobe is wiped

I dont think they would do all of this for a belt or pulley noise....
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f360/fhj178/78fa7851.jpg

Engine is at the machine shop now getting new cam bearings pressed in

J Wikoff

03-04-2011, 10:44 AM

I had a lifter do something similar in my 92 L67 Bonneville. It ran with a pretty good lifter tick for a few years before I dug into it and found this. No pics of the cam, but it was decently chewed up. The lifter is the same part number as the non-AFM lifters. This failure was pretty uncommon in 3800's. My thoughts were that a piece of an AWOL cam sensor magnet from a few years befre made its way into the lifter and temporarily siezed the roller. It rolled fine when I took it out.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/jwikoff99/Old%20car/Picture775.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/jwikoff99/Old%20car/Picture779.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/jwikoff99/Old%20car/Picture781.jpg

The cam lobe looked very much like this one posted above.

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa389/DetroitMuscleAssociation/IMG_2327.jpg

DetroitSpeedJunkie

03-04-2011, 10:51 AM

& i thought mine was bad, that lifter is really chewed up! Did any metal go through the motor in any of these scenarios? What are the chances with the cam/lifter material coming off?

ULTRA Z

03-04-2011, 10:54 AM

This is not a pulley noise, I am a mechanic and dont like letting other people touch my car, I only bring it to the dealer when the cost of repair deems so. When this started, I thought it was the same thing so I pulled both belts and it made the same noise. took it to the dealer and they found out that the rear cam lobe is wiped

I dont think they would do all of this for a belt or pulley noise....
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f360/fhj178/78fa7851.jpg

Engine is at the machine shop now getting new cam bearings pressed in
Easy there lol I also mechanic and I'm a offshore motorman by trade I was just saying mine made that noise and it was the Pulley even you said that's what you thought it was I'm glad you found the issue though it's in put like this that helps us get more out of are cars my lifter issues was a tick noise still sucks lol

J Wikoff

03-04-2011, 11:06 AM

& i thought mine was bad, that lifter is really chewed up! Did any metal go through the motor in any of these scenarios? What are the chances with the cam/lifter material coming off?

There were various chunks in the oil pickup screen. Some magnet, some of the magnet's plastic carrier. I don't know if cam/lifter material broke free or not. It seemed like everywhere there was a gouge, there was a similarly sized lump nearby. It looked mostly like material was relocated, but not removed.

Likwid

03-04-2011, 11:58 AM

Easy there lol I also mechanic and I'm a offshore motorman by trade I was just saying mine made that noise and it was the Pulley even you said that's what you thought it was I'm glad you found the issue though it's in put like this that helps us get more out of are cars my lifter issues was a tick noise still sucks lol

I'm not mad, sorry if it came out like that. What are they doing to yours, just lifters??

ULTRA Z

03-04-2011, 12:19 PM

I'm not mad, sorry if it came out like that. What are they doing to yours, just lifters??

they should break it open today or monday and we will see exactly whats wrong i really don't like letting them do it but if they are paying for it the ol lady and kids need a new house so i'm trying to square that away but i'll know more in a few days i'll keep it posted on what happened internally

youngrushhour

03-04-2011, 12:27 PM

Likwid

03-04-2011, 12:46 PM

Likwid -- Your video definitely doesn't sound like the lifter tick. The liter tick is a tapping. Yours is much more of a chirping. I have major lifter tick and it really sounds nothing like what your car has.

what you were hearing was the cam scraping across the non-rolling, roller lifter, the lifter was still working fine, other then that and the valve was still opening/closing fine but the roller seized

laserred

03-04-2011, 04:04 PM

CP, your cam especially looks just like what came out of my brother's car. I didn't ask what caused it to look like that, I asked why- Steve Tanzi from Erson Cams told me it's called "spalling" and basically, the lobe loads are too high and the induction hardening is defective or not thick enough (he said most that fail this way only end up around .005-.015" and it needs to be at least .030" or something like that- the call was last year), and it starts to break through like an eggshell. Flaking off, one little metal piece in your engine at a time.... Steve said there are only two surefire ways to prevent this from happening:
1. Run a flame-hardened steel core (no induction-hardened SADI crap like most cores are)
2. Give up on a performance cam, stick with a valvespring weaker than 200lbs over the nose and don't rev the turd over 3500.

I'll stick with the first :)

Spall are flakes of a material that are broken off a larger solid body and can be produced by a variety of mechanisms, including as a result of projectile impact, corrosion, weathering, cavitation, or excessive rolling pressure (as in a ball bearing). Spalling and spallation both describe the process of surface failure in which spall is shed.

ULTRA Z

03-07-2011, 09:03 AM

My litters are out and not so good can will be out soon . I'll try and to upload some pics

STL_G8GT

03-07-2011, 09:29 AM

Good luck... rebuild stronger!

ULTRA Z

03-07-2011, 11:12 AM

this is the back lifter on number 8 cylinder
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff159/ULTRA__Z/4%20DOOR%20FURY/G8Lifter2.jpg
this is the other side of the roller on the same lifter
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff159/ULTRA__Z/4%20DOOR%20FURY/G8Lifter.jpg
this is the back lifter on cylinder number 6
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff159/ULTRA__Z/4%20DOOR%20FURY/G8Lifter7.jpg

Crazy Paul

03-07-2011, 12:10 PM

this is the back lifter on number 8 cylinder
this is the other side of the roller on the same lifter
this is the back lifter on cylinder number 6

Ewww that's nasty.
Assuming you've still got all your AFM hardware installed, then you've got damage to both types of lifter.
"the De-Ac lifters are installed in cylinders 1, 4, 6 and 7."

ULTRA Z

03-07-2011, 02:14 PM

Ewww that's nasty.
Assuming you've still got all your AFM hardware installed, then you've got damage to both types of lifter.
"the De-Ac lifters are installed in cylinders 1, 4, 6 and 7."

you are correct my man i'm gonna let them fix it then probably gonna do a dod delete

J Wikoff

03-07-2011, 07:51 PM

Wow. I bet that sounded pretty bad.

youngrushhour

03-07-2011, 09:23 PM

you are correct my man i'm gonna let them fix it then probably gonna do a dod delete

Why don't you just have them install the DOD delete stuff? I don't see why GM wouldn't mind installing all of the stuff needed for the DOD delete. It IS GM parts.

Savage-wp

03-08-2011, 03:53 AM

My car actually made a bad lifter ticking noise after fitting a cam to the car. It only did it after the car had been standing for a while, and it only lasted for a short while ( 1 min maximum). Turned out to be a faulty lifter that kept pumping down. It could not handle the increased load from the dual spring setup. Put in a set of LS7 lifters, and no problem since then.

ULTRA Z

03-08-2011, 08:51 AM

Why don't you just have them install the DOD delete stuff? I don't see why GM wouldn't mind installing all of the stuff needed for the DOD delete. It IS GM parts.

i thought about asking them that but these guys are gungho oh factory exact factory parts and asked me several times if its been chipped we can't warrenty it i told them it had not been chipped lol i didn't tell them it had been dyno tuned by livernois lol they couldn't tell

Likwid

03-08-2011, 11:24 AM

I'd be scared if the tune is still in the car, they might check for it.

texn884

03-08-2011, 01:41 PM

Big Brother (GM) is always lurking inside :secret: the brain box waiting to say NO!
No Warranty for you Mr. Tuner.

G8-4-Speed

03-08-2011, 10:14 PM

ULTRA Z

03-09-2011, 11:04 AM

I'd be scared if the tune is still in the car, they might check for it.

they already tore it down so its on them i told them up front if they do anything its free cause i would do it myself if its gonna cost me anything so they did there scan and everything ahead of time i talked to the mech doing my work and cylinder 6 lifter had got turned sideways somehow ???? its got a bad flat spot were it was sliding down the cam lobe instead of rolling down it

Likwid

03-09-2011, 11:34 AM

they already tore it down so its on them i told them up front if they do anything its free cause i would do it myself if its gonna cost me anything so they did there scan and everything ahead of time i talked to the mech doing my work and cylinder 6 lifter had got turned sideways somehow ???? its got a bad flat spot were it was sliding down the cam lobe instead of rolling down it

well hopefully they will stand by their word, I know some dealers can be shady. That sucks about the lifter, wonder what cause it to turn sideways??

ULTRA Z

03-09-2011, 01:05 PM

well hopefully they will stand by their word, I know some dealers can be shady. That sucks about the lifter, wonder what cause it to turn sideways??

don't know thats very odd its got a grove that kinda holds it in and keeps it from turning so i thought that was very odd but i seen the lifter with my own eyes i can't wait to see the cam if they still have it when i get home

DetroitSpeedJunkie

03-09-2011, 01:38 PM

I have seen this exact thing on a stock 2006 6.0 in an Escalade. Same initial "noise" at idle. Just a bad lifter or cheep oil....

I have been running Mobil 1 synthetic in the car since the 1st oil change in my possession.

spider1701

03-09-2011, 01:51 PM

ah, my car sounded alot like when the lifter failed. SO i could be the pulley or it could be the lifters. Oh actually if you read the whole thread you'd know it's the lifters.

Likwid

03-09-2011, 02:37 PM

ah, my car sounded alot like when the lifter failed. SO i could be the pulley or it could be the lifters. Oh actually if you read the whole thread you'd know it's the lifters.

bahahahaha

youngrushhour

03-09-2011, 08:56 PM

Likwid

03-10-2011, 04:51 AM

Dealership won't fix lifters. They don't mind the mods on the car, but they say GM is saying the lifters must tick for exactly 4 minutes or some bullshit before they will OK the repair.

Not pleased, but we are going to ditch the lifters and the cam and go with a non-DOD cam in the next few weeks or so.

do you just have a lifter tick?? or do your lifters look like the ones in the above picture, if its just a tick, I can see where they are coming from but if they are fucked then they are covered under warranty

GXPaycheck

03-10-2011, 05:35 AM

I believe the new TSB says any more than a couple seconds and they need to be replaced.

J Wikoff

03-10-2011, 07:17 AM

Yep. I had mine replaced and the dealer said he only heard it for a few seconds. I've heard it last for nearly a minute or so, but I guess it wouldn't repeat for them.

youngrushhour

03-10-2011, 09:21 AM

do you just have a lifter tick?? or do your lifters look like the ones in the above picture, if its just a tick, I can see where they are coming from but if they are fucked then they are covered under warranty

It's a bad tick that has gotten progressively worse and worse.