Gears or Torque Converter.... If you could pick 1, which 1 would it be?

[JonnyG2132]

Saying you had all the boltons and a cam, which part would you pick if you could only pick 1 for a daily driver and occasional track car?

Jon

[ddcook08]

Converter

[wreckwriter]

Gear.

[vic2186]

2800 stall..two cars same mods both with slicks one with gear the other with converter..by by geared car..easy said than done..fgo with a lower stall for DD a tight 258mm..good luck

[parish8]

converter

[G8GT594]

Gear.

+1

[616 of 933]

converter.

[MGM GT]

Obviously its a small cam if your choosing to do a converter afterwards.

If its a pure daily driver with little to no track intentions then I would say gear, any plans for racing, track use, bigger cam, etc.. I would go converter. Best of both worlds would of course be both!

[SpeedRacerX]

Obviously its a small cam if your choosing to do a converter afterwards.

If its a pure daily driver with little to no track intentions then I would say gear, any plans for racing, track use, bigger cam, etc.. I would go converter. Best of both worlds would of course be both!

^^^ +1

[SRG963]

Gears

[jzpiano]

I can't see the poll option.....:notworking:

[wreckwriter]

I can't see the poll option.....:notworking:

Cuz there isn't one :)

[SRG963]

lol

[TomPierce]

Gears - don't affect drivability as much as a converter will

[13 QTR]

gears..
I have both and still don't like the convertor.....but I have to have it with this cam....

[SpeedRacerX]

OP - on this much debated topic - if it makes you feel any better, I did some research today. I hope it helps.

Specifically, I looked for current Sedans running 6-Speed Autos, are in the 3800-4100 pound range, and have higher horsepower and torque than your typical 4-door slug. Unfortunately, my research was limited to the half-dozen auto magz I had laying around.

The premise was: with our 4.03 first gear ratio, would going to a 3.70 gear be too much gear...

Our 4.03 x stock 2.92 Diff = effectively a 11.77 first gear. For reference in our GTs, a 3.45 = 13.90 first gear and a 3.70 = 14.91 first gear.

So what? What does this mean and what does it compare to?

BMW 750i, 6-speed Auto, 400 hp, 450 Tq, 4475#, 0-60 in 5.2, 1/4 in 13.6, 6600 redline, FI Twin Turbo
3.46 Diff x 4.17 First Gear Ratio = 14.43 first gear.

Maserati Quatro. Sport GTS, 6-speed Auto, 433 hp, 361 Tq, 4453#, 0-60 in 4.5, 1/4 in 13.1, 7200 redline, NA
3.73 Diff x 4.17 First Gear Ratio = 15.55 first gear.

Lexus IS350C, 6-speed Auto, 306 hp, 277 Tq, 3916#, 0-60 in 5.2, 1/4 in 13.9, 6600 redline, NA
4.08 Diff x 3.52 First Gear Ratio = 14.40 first gear.

For the heck of it and because I was curious to see what this factory beast had...

Lexus ISF, 8-speed Auto, 417 hp, 371 Tq, 3825#, 0-60 in 4.2 to 4.8, 1/4 in 12.5 to 12.90, 6800 redline, NA
2.94 Diff x 4.596 First Gear Ratio = 13.51 first gear.

Average of all 4 cars = 14.47 which would equal a 3.59 in a GT.

A 3.59 is 14 "points" away from a 3.45 and only 11 "points" away from a 3.70.

The only major difference I see in all of this data is the engine redline, which was much higher than ours in every case, making the "lower" gear's quicker run-up the RPM band more usable, I guess.

So what does this all mean? IMHO, I think you are safe with either a 3.45 OR a 3.70.

Perhaps a 3.45 is on the conservative side, with a touch better gas mileage, and maybe it works better for our stock-ish redline, and better for 26-27" tires.

Perhaps a 3.70 is on the aggressive side, works better for raised redlines, and for taller tires.

Either way, a 3.45 or a 3.70 diff is NOT too much gear for our cars as several other luxury-performance, 6-speed auto, heavy vehicles are using something comparable when it comes to the overall first gear ratio.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Both.

SpeedracerX, very good post.

[-Ray-]

^ Great post.

[jimmytt6]

Another great post SpeedRacerX..good info.thx

[familycaronROIDS!]

ok recent comparison same track.

G8 #1 same set up as me with 3.27 gears with stick converter 12.9

G8 #2 (me) same set up with 3200 stall with stock 2.92 gears 12.1

I have owned a 3600 stall converter extremely lose and driveability not so good around town. Then I had the 3200 stall installed and the driveability around town is pretty dam good. I would recommend the 3200 stall to anyone. You will have better results with the converter if you had to pick one.

They go great together though..... 3.45's will soon be ordered..

[JonnyG2132]

OP - on this much debated topic - if it makes you feel any better, I did some research today. I hope it helps.

Specifically, I looked for current Sedans running 6-Speed Autos, are in the 3800-4100 pound range, and have higher horsepower and torque than your typical 4-door slug. Unfortunately, my research was limited to the half-dozen auto magz I had laying around.

The premise was: with our 4.03 first gear ratio, would going to a 3.70 gear be too much gear...

Our 4.03 x stock 2.92 Diff = effectively a 11.77 first gear. For reference in our GTs, a 3.45 = 13.90 first gear and a 3.70 = 14.91 first gear.

So what? What does this mean and what does it compare to?

BMW 750i, 6-speed Auto, 400 hp, 450 Tq, 4475#, 0-60 in 5.2, 1/4 in 13.6, 6600 redline, FI Twin Turbo
3.46 Diff x 4.17 First Gear Ratio = 14.43 first gear.

Maserati Quatro. Sport GTS, 6-speed Auto, 433 hp, 361 Tq, 4453#, 0-60 in 4.5, 1/4 in 13.1, 7200 redline, NA
3.73 Diff x 4.17 First Gear Ratio = 15.55 first gear.

Lexus IS350C, 6-speed Auto, 306 hp, 277 Tq, 3916#, 0-60 in 5.2, 1/4 in 13.9, 6600 redline, NA
4.08 Diff x 3.52 First Gear Ratio = 14.40 first gear.

For the heck of it and because I was curious to see what this factory beast had...

Lexus ISF, 8-speed Auto, 417 hp, 371 Tq, 3825#, 0-60 in 4.2 to 4.8, 1/4 in 12.5 to 12.90, 6800 redline, NA
2.94 Diff x 4.596 First Gear Ratio = 13.51 first gear.

Average of all 4 cars = 14.47 which would equal a 3.59 in a GT.

A 3.59 is 14 "points" away from a 3.45 and only 11 "points" away from a 3.70.

The only major difference I see in all of this data is the engine redline, which was much higher than ours in every case, making the "lower" gear's quicker run-up the RPM band more usable, I guess.

So what does this all mean? IMHO, I think you are safe with either a 3.45 OR a 3.70.

Perhaps a 3.45 is on the conservative side, with a touch better gas mileage, and maybe it works better for our stock-ish redline, and better for 26-27" tires.

Perhaps a 3.70 is on the aggressive side, works better for raised redlines, and for taller tires.

Either way, a 3.45 or a 3.70 diff is NOT too much gear for our cars as several other luxury-performance, 6-speed auto, heavy vehicles are using something comparable when it comes to the overall first gear ratio.

Great post! Thanks!

I read all of your recommendations. If you read my signature it shows that I do have the New Era Performance DOD cam and a 3400 converter. Im thinking of a couple different options for next year when i have the money. I am just trying to figure out if I really need a converter for my car that is a daily driver with not a ton of track use? Having the converter takes off about 40 hp and 40 tq, but obv helps a lot at the track when launching. Im thinking of helping the car go faster on the street. So what i was thinking was getting the Vector NON DOD cam that works with NO converter, selling my converter, and then buying 3.45 gears. I think that route would give me the power I am looking for on the street. Or I have these other options:

1. Keep the DOD cam and 3400 converter and then buy 3.45 gears
2. Change the cam from DOD to Non DOD that would work well with the converter and then no gears

[MGM GT]

SpeedracerX, very good post.

Yepp cool research!

[travis gore]

gears for what it is worth at this point. Good job SpeedRacerX. I would not want a stall in a daily driver. I did not care for the stall after a while. Not a daily then I would

Good Luck on your choice





just do both!!!!!! you only live once

[GeorgeInNePa]

Great post! Thanks!

I read all of your recommendations. If you read my signature it shows that I do have the New Era Performance DOD cam and a 3400 converter. Im thinking of a couple different options for next year when i have the money. I am just trying to figure out if I really need a converter for my car that is a daily driver with not a ton of track use? Having the converter takes off about 40 hp and 40 tq, but obv helps a lot at the track when launching. Im thinking of helping the car go faster on the street. So what i was thinking was getting the Vector NON DOD cam that works with NO converter, selling my converter, and then buying 3.45 gears. I think that route would give me the power I am looking for on the street. Or I have these other options:

1. Keep the DOD cam and 3400 converter and then buy 3.45 gears
2. Change the cam from DOD to Non DOD that would work well with the converter and then no gears
You don't actually loose the hp and torque. The chassis dyno just doesn't "see" it.

I ran a 12.16, .19, .20, and .21 at over a 113mph with 353hp/342torque on my dyno sheet. Do you think that's what I actually had, or was the dyno just not seeing it?

[JonnyG2132]

You don't actually loose the hp and torque. The chassis dyno just doesn't "see" it.

I ran a 12.16, .19, .20, and .21 at over a 113mph with 353hp/342torque on my dyno sheet. Do you think that's what I actually had, or was the dyno just not seeing it?

good point. wasnt aware of that. thanks for the info

off topic..so since i made 391hp/353tq, i should be running faster then a 12.5 huh? boy i hope my new converter works better then the last one

[MGM GT]

You don't actually loose the hp and torque. The chassis dyno just doesn't "see" it.

I ran a 12.16, .19, .20, and .21 at over a 113mph with 353hp/342torque on my dyno sheet. Do you think that's what I actually had, or was the dyno just not seeing it?

I ran 11.8's with 406hp/367tq... dyno didn't see mine either.

[JonnyG2132]

I ran 11.8's with 406hp/367tq... dyno didn't see mine either.

what the frick lol. are you guys doing some serious weight reduction or having great weather or what? these are some impressive times with the power you guys are making

[GeorgeInNePa]

what the frick lol. are you guys doing some serious weight reduction or having great weather or what? these are some impressive times with the power you guys are making

My car isn't lightened.

Well ok, I took the passenger seat out, but I weighed 275lbs.

The DA was -200 to +200 that day.

[JonnyG2132]

My car isn't lightened.

Well ok, I took the passenger seat out, but I weighed 275lbs.

The DA was -200 to +200 that day.

damn. i havent been to the track once this year where the DA was lower then 2000. That could be one of my problems too. i havent tried taking the seat out before. i heard it takes off about 50lbs though

[MGM GT]

what the frick lol. are you guys doing some serious weight reduction or having great weather or what? these are some impressive times with the power you guys are making

I make more then that now, that was my old shitty tune. I just need to get it all to the ground to realize the true potential!

Car is almost 4k lbs, I have a lighter battery and subframe weights off but I also have 30lbs of sound dampener in there so it evens out. Full interior, stock wheels, etc..

[JonnyG2132]

I make more then that now, that was my old shitty tune. I just need to get it all to the ground to realize the true potential!

Car is almost 4k lbs, I have a lighter battery and subframe weights off but I also have 30lbs of sound dampener in there so it evens out. Full interior, stock wheels, etc..

I see that you are making more now. But with the 406hp/367tq, a 11.8 is very impressive.

[JonnyG2132]

Ok well after reading your responses and thinking about my options, I have come down to 2...

1. keeping DOD cam and 3400 converter and buying 3.45 gears
2. Changing from DOD cam to NON DOD cam and no gears

Which one do you believe would be the best route?

1. My DOD cam gave me about 45-50 hp gain. I see the NON DOD cams giving cars over 100 hp gains. So switching from DOD to non DOD i would gain around 60-70hp and a lot more tq. Doing this would cost around 2500 or so for parts and install. yikes

2. Gears = about 1500 for parts and labor for about 2-3 tenths

After writing it all down on here, it almost looks like the gears are the way to go in this case? They are cheaper and give around the same gains it seems

[MGM GT]

Ok well after reading your responses and thinking about my options, I have come down to 2...

1. keeping DOD cam and 3400 converter and buying 3.45 gears
2. Changing from DOD cam to NON DOD cam and no gears

Which one do you believe would be the best route?

1. My DOD cam gave me about 45-50 hp gain. I see the NON DOD cams giving cars over 100 hp gains. So switching from DOD to non DOD i would gain around 60-70hp and a lot more tq. Doing this would cost around 2500 or so for parts and install. yikes

2. Gears = about 1500 for parts and labor for about 2-3 tenths

After writing it all down on here, it almost looks like the gears are the way to go in this case? They are cheaper and give around the same gains it seems

I would get rid of DOD just for the fact I don't like those parts in my engine, after that you'll wear out your diff then upgrade as needed.

[JonnyG2132]

I would get rid of DOD just for the fact I don't like those parts in my engine, after that you'll wear out your diff then upgrade as needed.

Why dont you like the DOD stuff? is it cheap? what are the benefits getting rid of DOD? is it just durability?

[MGM GT]

Why dont you like the DOD stuff? is it cheap? what are the benefits getting rid of DOD? is it just durability?

Mainly, I just don't trust it in the long run.

[JonnyG2132]

Mainly, I just don't trust it in the long run.

Ok I gotcha

[STL_G8GT]

Yes and no...

100hp frpm a cam alone is going to almost definitely require a stall... keep that in mind. I doubt that my 'baby cam' does anywhere near that and even it wants to push through the factory super tight converter...




Ok well after reading your responses and thinking about my options, I have come down to 2...

1. keeping DOD cam and 3400 converter and buying 3.45 gears
2. Changing from DOD cam to NON DOD cam and no gears

Which one do you believe would be the best route?

1. My DOD cam gave me about 45-50 hp gain. I see the NON DOD cams giving cars over 100 hp gains. So switching from DOD to non DOD i would gain around 60-70hp and a lot more tq. Doing this would cost around 2500 or so for parts and install. yikes

2. Gears = about 1500 for parts and labor for about 2-3 tenths

After writing it all down on here, it almost looks like the gears are the way to go in this case? They are cheaper and give around the same gains it seems

[JonnyG2132]

Yes and no...

100hp frpm a cam alone is going to almost definitely require a stall... keep that in mind. I doubt that my 'baby cam' does anywhere near that and even it wants to push through the factory super tight converter...

The new Vector cam made over 100 hp and made for a stock converter

[STL_G8GT]

That's a pretty strong non-stall cam. Id be interested in seeing a complete dyno overlay, from 0-8k vs a stock cam... you'd think there's a tradeoff somewhere... that factory stall can only take so much...


The new Vector cam made over 100 hp and made for a stock converter

[MGM GT]

The new Vector cam made over 100 hp and made for a stock converter

If I recall they combined the cam gains with headers, intake, etc... more like 50-60 just like the normal stock converter cams.

[familycaronROIDS!]

When comparing cams (dod-non dod) I like looking at 1/4 mile performance.. Dyno sheets/graphs only for tuning purposes.

[MGM GT]

When comparing cams (dod-non dod) I like looking at 1/4 mile performance.. Dyno sheets/graphs only for tuning purposes.

Ok well then who is running 11's with a DOD cam?

[GeorgeInNePa]

Ok well then who is running 11's with a DOD cam?

New Era went into the 11.9s with their DoD cam. Converter, drag tires, etc...

[MGM GT]

New Era went into the 11.9s with their DoD cam. Converter, drag tires, etc...

Didn't know that... but other then a shop car has anyone done it?

[JonnyG2132]

Didn't know that... but other then a shop car has anyone done it?

my buddy has the old New Era car with the DOD cam. I also have the New Era DOD cam in my car. We havent had the weather to hit 11's yet but we will be there. or atleast close:)

[GeorgeInNePa]

Didn't know that... but other then a shop car has anyone done it?

I don't know, but if drugs and I went 12.teens without s cam, isn't it logical that with another 50hp you'd pick up s bit?

[MGM GT]

my buddy has the old New Era car with the DOD cam. I also have the New Era DOD cam in my car. We havent had the weather to hit 11's yet but we will be there. or atleast close:)

What are your incrementals so far?


I don't know, but if drugs and I went 12.teens without s cam, isn't it logical that with another 50hp you'd pick up s bit?

Its logical, but logic needs to be proven. Your also the only two to do it and had a lot of supporting mods to get there.

[JonnyG2132]

What are your incrementals so far?



Its logical, but logic needs to be proven. Your also the only two to do it and had a lot of supporting mods to get there.

incrementals?

[Tempest2000]

Mine was 339 rwhp with corsa, rotofab and a vms tune.

With my cam, 1 7/8 kooks mid length headers, valve job, ported intake, and raising the compression to 10.8 it came to 427rwhp.

People say the midlengths give your 10-15hp, valve job, intake work, and upping compression maybe 15-20.

88hp gain - 30hp =58hp Still only like a 60hp gain with a stage 1 livernois which is on the very edge of being too much cam for a stock converter. Mine does have a little surge when coming to a stop fast on the 2-1 downshift. Honestly since I drive 20k miles a year I would give up 10hp for a car that idles like stock. FYI I have around 20k miles on it since the cam swap last year... I'm going with a blower cam that is a little more tame in preparation for FI next year. I'm guessing I'll lose maybe 10-15hp now, but it should have a broader power band than the stage 1 now.

[MGM GT]

incrementals?

60' 1/8' MPH etc...

[JonnyG2132]

60' 1/8' MPH etc...

oh ok. well all i know is my buddy with the olde new era car ran a best so far of 12.3 with a 1.7 60' with a DA of 2000-3000

[GeorgeInNePa]

Its logical, but logic needs to be proven. Your also the only two to do it and had a lot of supporting mods to get there.

Mike had the supporting mods. He spent a lot of time on the dyno and posted sheets as he went. He posted slips from many drag days that showed a nice progression as he learned the car.

Believe it or not, whatever.

[Voice of Reason]

For gear swap calculations check out this site. http://www.f-body.org/gears/ Enter in your info and it tells you exactly what speed you can go in each gear.

IMO 3.70s are too much gear for our cars because of what they do to 1st and 2nd gears. Having to to shift out of 1st at 32 and out of 2nd at 55 is really low for a DD. Now that I've been driving with 3.27s for a while I think I should have gone with 3.45s. 3rd gear could pull just a little harder and I think 3.45s would have helped with that.

And for the gear vs converter debate, I went with gears because it's a DD that will see the track 2-3 times a year. I've never driven a car with an aftermarket converter, but just based on stories I've read here and else where it's too easy to go too much converter and have a terrible DD driving experience. Where gears, even if you went "too much", because of our 0.67 6th gear you wouldn't notice it all that bad on the highway.

[MGM GT]

Mike had the supporting mods. He spent a lot of time on the dyno and posted sheets as he went. He posted slips from many drag days that showed a nice progression as he learned the car.

Believe it or not, whatever.

Not doubting its possible, just wondering what it takes and waiting to see it...

Actually you made me go search...

Found it... Mike went 11.98@115.16 with these mods:

-New Era OTR intake
-160 tstat
-Powerbond underdrive crank pulley
-New Era ported throttle body and intake manifold
-New Era High Lift DOD cam package with Yella Terra rockers
-Heads are milled .020 and had a performance valve job using a cometic .040--Head gasket (.013 thinner than stock)
-American Racing 1 7/8 headers with cats
-New Era straight pipes replacing mufflers (track only, my wife drives around on the stock mufflers)
-Precision 3200 rpm single disc custom converter
-NGK TR6 spark plugs
-Drag radials (track only, the wheels weigh the same as stock), stock front rims and tires
-New Era custom tuning
-100% stock suspension believe it or not, and full weight, nothing was taken out


So tell me again what other DOD cam car ran 11's? Since this car has had the heads off and headwork done to run an 11.98 with a 1.72 60' leads me to believe it would be hard to run 11's with a normal DOD cam car!

[GeorgeInNePa]

Not doubting its possible, just wondering what it takes and waiting to see it...

Actually you made me go search...

Found it... Mike went 11.98@115.16 with these mods:

-New Era OTR intake
-160 tstat
-Powerbond underdrive crank pulley
-New Era ported throttle body and intake manifold
-New Era High Lift DOD cam package with Yella Terra rockers
-Heads are milled .020 and had a performance valve job using a cometic .040--Head gasket (.013 thinner than stock)
-American Racing 1 7/8 headers with cats
-New Era straight pipes replacing mufflers (track only, my wife drives around on the stock mufflers)
-Precision 3200 rpm single disc custom converter
-NGK TR6 spark plugs
-Drag radials (track only, the wheels weigh the same as stock), stock front rims and tires
-New Era custom tuning
-100% stock suspension believe it or not, and full weight, nothing was taken out


So tell me again what other DOD cam car ran 11's? Since this car has had the heads off and headwork done to run an 11.98 with a 1.72 60' leads me to believe it would be hard to run 11's with a normal DOD cam car!

You, at times, make the baby jesus cry...

The DA wasn't great when he did it.

I find it hard to believe someone's 4000lb. car picks up 5mph with a tiny shot of nitrous sprayed for only part of the run. But hey, that's just me.

[MGM GT]

You, at times, make the baby jesus cry...

The DA wasn't great when he did it.

I find it hard to believe someone's 4000lb. car picks up 5mph with a tiny shot of nitrous sprayed for only part of the run. But hey, that's just me.

Baby jesus cries when you sell your G8 for a Ford...

Technically that day it only gained 3 MPH, hard to compare different track days due to DA as you mentioned. Trust me I would be elated to have a full pass on spray and have the trans shift correctly!

[JonnyG2132]

I gained 5mph after I put in Mikes DOD cam. Not sure if thats what your talking about but.. it def adds some horsepower for being DOD. Went from 108 to 113

[Rasitlin]

Although i havent gotten it into the 11s, its deffinately there though. Thats with a stock exhaust and half a tank of gas. Im sure with a better DA i can get 12 0 all day..or im hoping :)

[Rasitlin]

Stock axleback that is..

[MGM GT]

Stock axleback that is..

I figured after seeing American Racing headers in your sig.... but the stock catback aint all that bad especially if you do the $100 x-pipe mod!

I wish you guys the best of luck, be cool to see another one do it!

[JonnyG2132]

Thanks!

[Rasitlin]

I figured after seeing American Racing headers in your sig.... but the stock catback aint all that bad especially if you do the $100 x-pipe mod!

I wish you guys the best of luck, be cool to see another one do it!

Thank you!