Cams!

[jbradsh1]

Most of you guys know I'm a bit on the conservative side (I just turned 58 so that's my excuse!). I'm really looking hard at getting a mild DOD cam, such as the one that Mike from New Era has in his car. I know he claims about 45 rwhp, which seemed a little optimistic, but hey, don't look a gift horse in the mouth as they say. My question is: I'm collecting info at the moment, so how does everyone feel about this type of cam? It seems to me that it would be an easier install, less expensive, more stealthy, and give quite a bump in rwhp. Am I evaluating this correctly. My aim has never been to maximize horsepower but to achieve good gains and keep the car very reliable and VERY stealthy. Any and all input is welcome.

[Crazy Paul]

All very good points you make.

IMO the one area where you are stepping into the unknown is reliability. Specifically the collapsible lifters.
The L76 engine was used by Holden in 2006 complete with all the DOD hardware but no software. They had quite a number of problems with the lifters becoming too noisy. Obviously this was without the lifters ever being commanded to collapse.This was also with the stock L76 DOD camshaft.

Holden then introduced a new engine (L98),same 6.0 block & L92 heads and same hp/tq, which was essentially identical to L76 except the DOD lifters and DOD hardware was gone. You'd have to ask why they went that route. Hundreds of the new L76 engines still in crates were scrapped by Holden and found their way onto ebay/dealerships and available to the general public for very low $.

So there's a good 2 years worth of experience and knowledge floating around downunder re L76 engines. As far as I'm aware no reputable performance workshop here does a camchange without getting rid of the DOD lifters at a minimum.

[Panther 2]

Imo, if you are looking for true reliable performance DOD is not the way to go , GM doesn't use this in the corvette. DOD lifters are not made for performance they are made for gas mileage.

[jbradsh1]

Thanks to you both. I'm convinced to go with the original plan now, and that is to scrap the DOD system altogether and put in a mild street cam. I know Livernois has a stage one cam with all the supporting hardware, which appeals to me.
By the way, will a cam'ed engine such as ours generate significant additional heat both from the engine and under the hood, i.e., should other mods be done such as increased cooling system capacity, coated headers, trans. cooler, etc.?

[MANOFSTEEL69]

I'm running the 160 degree thermostat with mine. I haven't noticed any increase in the temp of my motor since the cam. I lost an avg of 4MPG going non-DOD, but the HP gains well offset the loss.

[jbradsh1]

I'm running the 160 degree thermostat with mine. I haven't noticed any increase in the temp of my motor since the cam. I lost an avg of 4MPG going non-DOD, but the HP gains well offset the loss.

Thanks MANOFSTEEL, good to know and that does it for me. I'm sure also, now that I think about it, that the shop that does the install will recommend any further mods in the interest of reliability.

[Mike P]

Good thread JBradsh1. I am definitely getting rid of DOD, but want a very stealthy cam. So right now it's looking like Livernois Stage 1 cam or Charlie's LS3 Hot Cam.



...

[Andy@Livernois]

Thanks to you both. I'm convinced to go with the original plan now, and that is to scrap the DOD system altogether and put in a mild street cam. I know Livernois has a stage one cam with all the supporting hardware, which appeals to me.
By the way, will a cam'ed engine such as ours generate significant additional heat both from the engine and under the hood, i.e., should other mods be done such as increased cooling system capacity, coated headers, trans. cooler, etc.?

While the engine would indeed make more power, it really wont generate much more heat. We never change thermostat's unless a car is forced induction and has a problem keeping cool. I would say the only way you would see an increase is if you are WOT literally 100% of the time, and if you are beating on the car that bad a little extra temp should be the least of your worries.

I agree with HSV, the DOD system, while great for economy, is NOT great for performance.

[jbradsh1]

Thanks again to everyone. I've been collecting a sheet of cam info. Livernois's stage one has the following specs: 224/230 - .581/.590 - 112 LSA. The LS 3 hot cam I believe has the following specs (correct me if I'm wrong): 219/228 - 525/525 - 112 LSA. If I'm reading it right, the cam from Livernois has significantly more lift and very slightly more duration. It would seem that the most potential is in the Livernois cam due to the additional lift. Driveability of course is somewhat subjective so it would help to hear what someone has to say that has installed either of these two cams in their G8. I have also gotten info that the exhaust valves need more help because they are smaller than the intakes, so more lift on the exhaust valves compared to the intake valves is a good thing. To all you guys who are cam savvy, which I am not, have I got it about right?

[Crazy Paul]

Mostly correct.
The Livernois stage 1 cam is actually 114 LSA not 112.

Most places seem to agree that a positive split favouring the exhaust works best with these heads.

[jbradsh1]

Thanks. Looked at my notes once again and there it was, 114 LSA.

[Mike P]

More LS3 Hot Cam info.....

Go 1/2 way down the page in the bold "Get Your Horses In A Row" paragraph....

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0809gmhtp_gm_high_performance_parts/index.html



...

[jbradsh1]

More LS3 Hot Cam info.....

Go 1/2 way down the page in the bold "Get Your Horses In A Row" paragraph....

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0809gmhtp_gm_high_performance_parts/index.html



...

Very interesting indeed. Now we know why Charlie feels the way he does re: the hot cam. What's your take on this Mike?

[GRRRR8]

I did a little research. No parts just get thrown on my car without research. Proven products produce proven results. Thats a fact!

[Mike P]

I'm still learning all I can about cams. Like I said before, I definitely want to get rid of DOD/AFM for piece of mind & I'll either get the LS3 Hot Cam or the Livernois stage 1 cam. I don't want any lope at idle & would like to make some decent horse & torque with the cam swap.

Our engines are similar to LS3's right? So we should make some decent power with a cam swap.?

Question: What does the LSA spec have to do with cam performance? Would a cam that has 112 LSA produce more lope at idle than a 114 LSA......

Here's another GMPP link to the LS3 Hot Cam, it is the bottom of the 3 cams....

https://store.gmperformanceparts.com/store/QuickSearch.do?searchText=Hot%20Cam $436.80



...

[Mike P]

Here's a thread in a New Generation Camaro forum about the hot cam. This dude from GM Performance Parts, Robin Lawrence looks like he give some good info...

Page 2 is a lot better than page 1 of the thread.........

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8779


...

[SS Enforcer]

Mine performs very well with a similar camshaft 224 228 xer 114 +2 . Mate here in oz has just installed a 218 224 xfi 112 +0. It's a stump puller and will fry the tyres easily through the midrange.

cheers

[Mike P]

Sweet SS Enforcer thanks for the info! :)

That 'You Tube' video is awesome!

[jbradsh1]

I did a little research. No parts just get thrown on my car without research. Proven products produce proven results. Thats a fact!

That's just how I feel. I don't have the knowledge or experience that you have Charlie, so I have to apply Clint Eastwood's rule which is "A man's got to know his limitations" and then go from there.
Do you still favor the LS 3 Hot Cam?

[jbradsh1]

I'm still learning all I can about cams. Like I said before, I definitely want to get rid of DOD/AFM for piece of mind & I'll either get the LS3 Hot Cam or the Livernois stage 1 cam. I don't want any lope at idle & would like to make some decent horse & torque with the cam swap.

Our engines are similar to LS3's right? So we should make some decent power with a cam swap.?

Question: What does the LSA spec have to do with cam performance? Would a cam that has 112 LSA produce more lope at idle than a 114 LSA......

Here's another GMPP link to the LS3 Hot Cam, it is the bottom of the 3 cams....

https://store.gmperformanceparts.com/store/QuickSearch.do?searchText=Hot%20Cam $436.80



...

Some good posts there Mike! I can't answer your question there but I'm sure someone here can. But as a comment, if I could get say around another 40 rwhp I'd be happy!

[jbradsh1]

Mine performs very well with a similar camshaft 224 228 xer 114 +2 . Mate here in oz has just installed a 218 224 xfi 112 +0. It's a stump puller and will fry the tyres easily through the midrange.

cheers

Can you give us the lift on both your cam and your buddy from OZ?

[G8GTlawride]

I did a little research. No parts just get thrown on my car without research. Proven products produce proven results. Thats a fact!

Can you elaborate on the research? I have a hankering for a cam swap and to read these posts on the LS 3 and the one from Andy's seem to be very similar. Is the LS 3 cam a GM product? Also, what is the labor hours involved in such an endeavour?

[GRRRR8]

The LS3 "HOT" cam is a GM Performance product that can be purchased from Pace performance. This is a non-DOD cam so the heads will have to be removed for install. There are a few parts required for swap. I may do this swap with stock heads just so most of you can see what a cam only swap with my mod list will produce.

[G8GTlawride]

Thanks, you must be watching the game too! On the head removal, Is that a necessity because of DOD? I am very much old school on cam swaps and could do the swap no problem. Don't know diddly on todays procedures.

[Crazy Paul]

Only for Non-DOD cams:
Yes, the only reason you need to pull the heads off is so you can remove the DOD-lifters. You then install normal LS2/LS7 type lifters, replace the head gaskets and put the heads back on. New head bolts are required.

[Mike P]

The LS3 "HOT" cam is a GM Performance product that can be purchased from Pace Performance. This is a non-DOD cam so the heads will have to be removed for install. There are a few parts required for swap. I may do this swap with stock heads just so most of you can see what a cam only swap with my mod list will produce.


Yes, Charlie! That is totally what I want to do. Question: Does Pace Performance do installs as well? Or do they just sell parts?

I'll need to get my ECM retuned by Vector Motorsports once I get the cam & supporting mods put in, so maybe I'll just see if VMS can do the cam install.

I can't wait to see your results Charlie! :)

Also, P.S. - I'm sorry I haven't posted a thread that we talked & how awesome you are! :) I've been pretty busy & stuff, but I will definitely do that, because I very much appreciate your time & knowledge....

Thanks again! :)


...

[jbradsh1]

I've talked some with Kirk at Vector Motorsports re: cam upgrades and his shop can do the install & retune.

[Mike P]

I've talked some with Kirk at Vector Motorsports re: cam upgrades and his shop can do the install & retune.


:) Sweet. Sounds like the plan then! :)



...

[Andy@Livernois]

I am hoping to have video up soon on that stage 1 cam. Hopefully tomorrow it will be all buttoned up...

[jbradsh1]

I am hoping to have video up soon on that stage 1 cam. Hopefully tomorrow it will be all buttoned up...

Sounds great! Can we expect a dyno chart and some real down home feedback on how suitable this cam would be for us conservative car maniacs, er, I mean gentlemen?

[99-LS1-SS]

Mostly correct.
The Livernois stage 1 cam is actually 114 LSA not 112.

Most places seem to agree that a positive split favouring the exhaust works best with these heads.

If I'm not mistaken the 114 LSA is better suited for the automatic. If you had a manual transmission I would go with the 112 LSA. That cam is about the size of the first cam that I had in my Camaro. While the Camaro was a much lighter car than the G8 GT I think you'll like the performance and sound of that cam.

Here's a burnout in my Camaro right after the cam installed. Warning, it's pretty redneck...

MVqWiueNtKc

[jbradsh1]

Charlie; Do you think you could run a thread that lists various cams, their specs, and what set-up they would work well with (different levels of modifications), and what performance level you would get with the particular cam. That sort of thing. There seems to be quite a bit of interest in upgrading the cam. And I think the whole range of cam upgrades would be good. I know I'm on the conservative side but I'm sure there are others that want much more gain out of a cam upgrade.

[GRRRR8]

The thing about cams is you decision is based on your combo. If you are not going to put long tubes, up compression. do some head work and some real fine tuning, do not look beyond anything that says stage 1. 1st figure out what you want to accomplish, then what it will take as far as suspension and driveline to take the extra HP and then see if its in your budget.

[Andy@Livernois]

what about our new Stage 11? it's great, and the lope is turned up to 11... :D

[GRRRR8]

what about our new Stage 11? it's great, and the lope is turned up to 11... :D

SHHHHHHH! Top Secret!

[jbradsh1]

Oh yea, oh yea! The stage 11, that's the one I want!

[jbradsh1]

The thing about cams is you decision is based on your combo. If you are not going to put long tubes, up compression. do some head work and some real fine tuning, do not look beyond anything that says stage 1. 1st figure out what you want to accomplish, then what it will take as far as suspension and driveline to take the extra HP and then see if its in your budget.

Good advice Charlie. I was thinking of a thread that listed different cam stages, who sells them, what level of hop up they would work best with, etc. to sort of give the rest of us out here, the uninformed, a good guide from which to pick a cam. You have started the ball rolling with what you said in this post. Thanks.

[G8GTlawride]

Only for Non-DOD cams:
Yes, the only reason you need to pull the heads off is so you can remove the DOD-lifters. You then install normal LS2/LS7 type lifters, replace the head gaskets and put the heads back on. New head bolts are required.

Thank you.

[G8GTlawride]

Horsepower figures anyone, for cam swap only?

[jbradsh1]

[QUOTE=99-LS1-SS;15234]If I'm not mistaken the 114 LSA is better suited for the automatic. If you had a manual transmission I would go with the 112 LSA. That cam is about the size of the first cam that I had in my Camaro. While the Camaro was a much lighter car than the G8 GT I think you'll like the performance and sound of that cam.

Thanks for that info. I'm not even sure what the lobe surface angle? has to do with cam performance. But It's good to have this info.

[jbradsh1]

Here are the non DOD cams that I've become aware of with help from others:

CAM DURATION LSA VALVE LIFT

LS3 Hot Cam 219/228 112 .525/.525 (Charlie's choice)

Comp Cams 212/218 115 .558/.563

Livernois 224/230 114 .581/.590

Comp Cams 228/240 114 .598/.589 (MANOSTEEL's Cam)

Mike @ New Era has both DOD & non DOD cams that also work well (don't have the specs)!

These cams are being promoted as good street cams with low lope and good street manners that work well with stock heads with other modifications such as cai, exhaust, tune, etc. They are, in their respective order, milder to wilder. If someone would like to add to this list please feel free. I haven't included any DOD cams but these are available as well.

[99-LS1-SS]

In my limited opinion, the Livernois cam will produce the most power but the 115 LSA of the Comp Cam will help drive-ability a little more. If it were me I would go with the Livernois cam and make sure you get the car tuned by a good tuner.

[-Ray-]

Like Livernois?

[99-LS1-SS]

Me? If you are referring to me, I've never dealt with them. I was strictly going by they cam numbers. If you weren't referring to me then I apologize.

I think I understand your post. Were you referring to a tuner?

[Andy@Livernois]

Like Livernois?

Sounds perfect to me :D

[MANOFSTEEL69]

Psst! Your leaving out Mike @ New Eras 228/240 cam, which I have found very streetable, with a nice lobe at idle. Everyone that hears my car loves it. The only issue I have is at stop lights......Tigger gets very impatient! Lol!

[jbradsh1]

Psst! Your leaving out Mike @ New Eras 228/240 cam, which I have found very streetable, with a nice lobe at idle. Everyone that hears my car loves it. The only issue I have is at stop lights......Tigger gets very impatient! Lol!

MANOSTEEL! I did think of your application and this cam but don't have the full specs so I didn't list it. If you can post the specs, I'll edit my post to include them. New Era also makes a DOD cam, but I don't have the specs on that application either.

[MANOFSTEEL69]

I'll get the specs for you from Mike. Mine is the non-DOD, his is the DOD.

[GRRRR8]

Psst! Your leaving out Mike @ New Eras 228/240 cam, which I have found very streetable, with a nice lobe at idle. Everyone that hears my car loves it. The only issue I have is at stop lights......Tigger gets very impatient! Lol!

I feel bad that we do keep leaving out Mike. I will not let this keep happening. Hell he was the 1st!

[jbradsh1]

Didn't want to mention it, but I did consult with Mike. He can fill you in as he so desires. The cams I've listed above are either pretty well known or are published in articles or posts, etc. and so aren't proprietary.

[jbradsh1]

I feel bad that we do keep leaving out Mike. I will not let this keep happening. Hell he was the 1st!

Charlie; see my original post above, now corrected to include Mike @ New Era, & I agree, this should have done this to begin with!

[MANOFSTEEL69]

Ok, while cleaning out my garage to prepare for winter storage of the G8 and Harley, I found the specs for my Non-DOD cam
Comp. Cams
Valve Adjustment Intake:.598 Exhaust:589
Gross Valve Lift
Duration @
.006 Tappet Lift 278 293
Specs for cam installed @ 111.0 Intake Center Line
Duration @ .050 228 240
Lobe Lift .3520 .3470
Lobe Separation 114.0

[GeorgeInNePa]

Shouldn't those lift numbers be reversed?

[MANOFSTEEL69]

Don't believe so.....First set of numbers is valve lift, second is tappet.

[Andy@Livernois]

he meant int vs. exhaust. usually the L92 head prefers more lift and duration on the exhaust side. But your cam has more intake then exhaust lift, but more ex duration then intake...

[MANOFSTEEL69]

Hey Andy...What do you guys charge for dyno time? I'd love to retry a run with some cooler weather. It was 96 in the shop and like 80% humidity, after we redid the cam. I also might be intrested in having a little tweeking done to my tune.

[-Ray-]

Hey Jay, I might be by Livernois on Monday.

[MANOFSTEEL69]

Not sure where I'm headed yet.....Possibly could run up there if I'm home. We've been pretty slow lately in chemical hauling land, alot of factories are slowing way down :(

[-Ray-]

I'm headed to rochester gear in Northern MI on Tuesday. Monday's a travel day.

[MANOFSTEEL69]

Headed up to Livernois today.....Will fill you guys in about the shop and service later tonight ;)

[jbradsh1]

Ok, while cleaning out my garage to prepare for winter storage of the G8 and Harley, I found the specs for my Non-DOD cam
Comp. Cams
Valve Adjustment Intake:.598 Exhaust:589
Gross Valve Lift
Duration @
.006 Tappet Lift 278 293
Specs for cam installed @ 111.0 Intake Center Line
Duration @ .050 228 240
Lobe Lift .3520 .3470
Lobe Separation 114.0

Thanks MANOSTEEL! I'll edit my original post to include your cam.

[wreckwriter]

Hot Rod mag did a write up where they took a 6.0 LS truck engine (RPO LQ9), put our intake and heads on it and tested various cams, including the Hot cam. They decided the best was Crane 1449551 ( http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?show=browseParts&action=partSpec&partNumber=1449551&lvl=2&prt=5 ). This was in the Hot Rod ENGINES special edition Spring 2008.

I'm guessing this cam would work in our engines as well as long as DoD was pulled?

[MANOFSTEEL69]

Dan Millen @ Livernois said that my cam was pretty close to what he would have done....

[jbradsh1]

Hot Rod mag did a write up where they took a 6.0 LS truck engine (RPO LQ9), put our intake and heads on it and tested various cams, including the Hot cam. They decided the best was Crane 1449551 ( http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?show=browseParts&action=partSpec&partNumber=1449551&lvl=2&prt=5 ). This was in the Hot Rod ENGINES special edition Spring 2008.

I'm guessing this cam would work in our engines as well as long as DoD was pulled?

Thanks for the info. Probably would. I noticed that the rpm limit was 5400. I have a feeling this may work great for a truck engine but if you want to turn 6500 rpm ... then? Would this be a stump puller as they say?

By the way, I can't find my cam post which lists all the cams. Do you know what happened to it?

[jbradsh1]

Dan Millen @ Livernois said that my cam was pretty close to what he would have done....

I believe it. How's the bottom end pull? I mean is it at all sluggish coming off the bottom?

[wreckwriter]

By the way, I can't find my cam post which lists all the cams. Do you know what happened to it?

Nothing happened to it from us, Its here somewhere.

[wreckwriter]

Thanks for the info. Probably would. I noticed that the rpm limit was 5400. I have a feeling this may work great for a truck engine but if you want to turn 6500 rpm ... then? Would this be a stump puller as they say?

By the way, I can't find my cam post which lists all the cams. Do you know what happened to it?

I didn't notice the RPM limit. That pretty well shits it for us. Yea, the mag did talk about stump pulling.

[jbradsh1]

Nothing happened to it from us, Its here somewhere.

Thanks, I found it and started a new post where the cams are listed right at the beginning and then we can add to it as we go along.