PIP4725: Start Up Lifter Tick Noise After Engine Has Been Off For 2 Hours Or More

[WickedMom]

#PIP4725: Start Up Lifter Tick Noise After Engine Has Been Off For 2 Hours Or More - Non-AFM Engines - (Oct 29, 2009)

Subject: Start Up Lifter Tick Noise After Engine Has Been Off for 2 Hours or More - Non-AFM Engines

Models: 2007-2009 Cadillac CTS-V
2007-2009 Cadillac Escalade
2007-2009 Chevrolet Avalanche, Corvette, Express, Silverado, Suburban, Tahoe, Trail Blazer SS
2007-2009 GMC Savana, Sierra, Yukon
2007-2009 Hummer H2
2008-2009 Hummer H3
2008-2009 Pontiac G8
2007-2009 Saab 97x Aero
With a Non-AFM (Active Fuel Management) V8 Engines:
(RPOs L92, L9H, LH8, LMF, LS2, LS3, LS7, LS9, LSA, LY2, or LY6)

Important: This PI only applies to the Non-AFM V8 engines above. It does not apply to AFM V8 Engines. If you are dealing with an AFM V8 engine that has a similar noise, please refer to the latest version of PIP4499.

The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
Condition/Concern:

Some customers may comment on a start up lifter tick noise that occurs after the engine has been off for at least 2 hours and can last for several minutes.

This may be the result of dirty/low engine oil. dissolved air in the oil, and/or debris in the lifters.
Recommendation/Instructions:

If the SI diagnostics do not isolate the cause of this lifter tick noise and normal oil pressure is noted during the concern, perform the following suggestions as necessary:

1. Check the oil condition and level. If it's more than 1 quart low or if poor oil quality is noted, change the oil and filter, and re-evaluate the noise. Allow at least a 2 hour soak time between start ups when re-evaluating the noise.
2. If the tick lasts long enough, perform a cylinder power balance test with the Tech 2 to cancel each fuel injector while listening to the noise. If the noise is eliminated, or greatly improved, each time a specific fuel injector is cancelled, there is most likely a concern with the related piston pin or piston to cylinder wall clearance of that cylinder. If this does not isolate a specific cylinder, continue to the rest of the steps below.
3. If the tick is experienced from more than 1 lifter, replace the oil pump and oil pump o-ring to address potential dissolved air in the oil and re-evaluate the noise. Generally, this will not affect oil pressure or cause obvious air bubbles in the oil that can be visually identified.
4. If the tick is experienced from a single lifter, replace all of the lifters on the suspect bank and re-evaluate the noise.

Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.

[blue-mayhem]

Yeah my G8 was ticking and I changed the oil and I haven't heard it since then. I hope it doesn't start again.

[mikemaj82]

mine goes away after the engine warms up.

[zepcom]

Anyone else notice that this is only for the GXP cars?

"Non-AFM engines"

Could "wickedmom" please post the PIP4499 for us GT folks? Mine ticks like a MF for the first 15+ minutes of a drive, and I take it easy too...


EDIT: Quick search found a very generic description of PIP4499... not much help other than "aerated oil" diagnosis.

[WickedMom]

http://forum.grrrr8.net/showthread.php?t=14256

TSB SECTION!!! <3

[zepcom]

http://forum.grrrr8.net/showthread.php?t=14256

TSB SECTION!!! <3

Thank you!
I must admit my own ignorance, I usually cruise-control right over to "new posts" and browse, or search. Odd that your post referenced above for AFM engines did not show up in search results when I searched for it. Maybe I had the wrong search string.

Noted for future reference, I LOVE the TSB section!!

Thanks WickedMom... :cheers:

--zepcom

[CapriceV8]

Sorry for the thread bump, but does anyone know whether this service bulletin also applies to the L98 engine? I'm in Australia, and have a 2008 Holden Caprice, with the L98 engine. I have a sound which may be lifter noise - please take a listen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiF5OSdBsrI
Notes for video:
Engine starts at 20s
Mic over centre of engine at circa 40s
At 1min7 (loud single knock) mic is moved over to left (dipstick side) of engine
At 1min22 (loud double knock) mic is moved over to right side of engine
At 1min34 (loud single knock) mic is moved over to left (dipstick side) of engine
At 1min49 (loud double knock) mic is moved over to right side of engine
At 2min3 (three loud knocks) mic is moved back over to centre of engine.
The offending sound disappears, for all intents & purposes, at 6 to 7 minutes.

I have 160,000km (100,000mi) on the clock now, but I think I've had this sound for a VERY long time, and simply ignored it.

EDIT: It appears that "L98" might be a Holden RPO. According to the GM_LS_engine Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_LS_engine) this is a Holden version of the Gen IV engine. I see that this RPO was used for much older generations too - my engine is relatively recent.

Greg.
p.s The photo was taken when it was new - it doesn't look that good any more.

[Crazy Paul]

Hey Greg,
I don't know for sure if Holden follow or adopt any of the GM service bulletins, I think they develop their own and use a different numbering system. You're wasting your time talking to Americans about the all aluminium Gen4 6.0 L98 as there would be maybe only a dozen who would know what you are talking about or even seen one.
L98 as you know it is Australia/Middle East/NZ/South Africa......only.

You can get that kind of chirping from lifters but it will not continue to be quiet like that for very long....if it's lifters they get progressively worse fairly quickly.

What I'd do if I were you is drop both belts off and run the engine at idle for no longer than 1 minute.
[Under the same conditions as when you normally hear the chirping.....ie First thing in the morning].
You'll have no water pump so keep it to a minimum or you'll have an unwanted BBQ.

Chirp could well be an idler or tensioner. If it still chirps with no belts running then you can more surely look towards the block internals as the culprit.

[CapriceV8]

Thanks HSV!
Isn't the L98 just an L76 without the DoD stuff? And isn't the L76 used in America? If so, maybe it's not a complete waste of time talking to them. :) Mind you, I only know what I know from Googling over the last two days. :)

FWIW, I found this thread: http://www.g8board.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44805 in which they are discussing a sound which sounds EXACTLY the same as my sound. I am waiting for my account to be activated over there so I can crosspost. :)

Thanks for the advice. I'll pass this on to my mechanic.

Cheers,
Greg.

[Crazy Paul]

Isn't the L98 just an L76 without the DoD stuff? And isn't the L76 used in America?
Yes, but there's AFM specific bits scattered thru the whole L76 engine from inside the oilpan to the top of the block. Total of all the bits would fill a decent sized trash can.
Americans got L76 in G8-GT about 2 years after Australia first had them.
Americans were the first to have their AFM activated by the computer tho.



I am waiting for my account to be activated over there so I can crosspost. :)
Oh joy.


I'll pass this on to my mechanic.
Eliminating idler and tensioner noises will help. Any mechanic that's half decent with a stethiscope will find and tell you which cylinder has the dicky lifter, if that's the issue.

[CapriceV8]

Paul,
Would it be correct that the parts in common between the L76 and the L98 would fill an even larger trash can?

If my problem is due to one or more lifters, wouldn't it be prudent to replace ALL of them, if I have to go to the ENORMOUS expense of removing the head? The cost/time aside, my understanding is that each time the head is removed, it has to be resurfaced, which reduces the engine capacity slightly. This in turn increases the compression ratio, which then increases the likelihood of pre-detonation, as carbon builds up over time. Is this correct?

I spoke to a dealer (Spares department) about the lifters. They confirmed that the lifters have been "revised". (which tallies with what I have read on the 'net) You appear to be a Holden supplier. Do you know anything about all this? Are you aware of any Holden TSBs?

Greg.

[Crazy Paul]

Paul,
If my problem is due to one or more lifters, wouldn't it be prudent to replace ALL of them, if I have to go to the ENORMOUS expense of removing the head?
Yes you replace all 16 lifters.....standard by the book GM & Holden procedure.
You get 16 new LS lifters 12499225 in a set for about US$120 if you buy yourself from USA.



The cost/time aside, my understanding is that each time the head is removed, it has to be resurfaced, which reduces the engine capacity slightly. This in turn increases the compression ratio, which then increases the likelihood of pre-detonation, as carbon builds up over time. Is this correct?
No, resurfacing (skimming) the head does not reduce engine capacity. The pistons still displace the same volume before and after.
Yes skimming will increase the compression ratio slightly.
5 thou might raise it 0.1.....you'd need to skim 25 (0.63mm) to 30 thou (0.75mm) to go from your current 10.4 to 10.9 for example.
The clean-up skim (if necessary) isn't likely to cause any pre-detonation or carbon problems.




I spoke to a dealer (Spares department) about the lifters. They confirmed that the lifters have been "revised". (which tallies with what I have read on the 'net) You appear to be a Holden supplier. Do you know anything about all this? Are you aware of any Holden TSBs?

You'll pay 3x the price getting your LS parts from Australia via Holden that buying yourself from USA.
AFM lifters have been revised but you dont have those, your L98 has 16 x normal LS lifters.
The standard "default" (non AFM) replacement lifter for all LS engines since about 2006 has been the LS7 lifter 12499225.
No I don't have access to Holden TSB's.

Contact Greg @ Waslow for your parts.
Get them sent by USPS through the postal service.
http://forum.grrrr8.net/member.php?u=92
•LS series lifter kit
•Pair of L92/LS3 MLS head gaskets
•Pair of GM cylinder head bolt kits
•Pair of LS manifold gaskets

[CapriceV8]

Thanks for all the excellent information Paul - much appreciated.

I was quoted $120.00 PER LIFTER by a dealer. (although they give a discount to professional drivers, which I am) What an incredibly large discrepancy!!

Next step is to get a proper diagnosis.

Greg.

[CapriceV8]

Paul,
I called another Holden dealer. They said the part number is 17122490, which does not match the part number you gave me. They also said there's a new part number on the way - not released yet. They don't recognise your part number, so I guess yours is a GM part number, yes?

Are the non-AFM lifters in the L76 the same as mine, or are all lifters in the L76 different to mine? If they're all different, then this discussion really is off topic, and perhaps we should continue it over on an Aussie forum, in this thread that I have going over there: http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=149601 (my nick is "skip100" over there - didn't want to use "skip" on an American forum because it's a common name, and does not match my name)

Greg.

[Crazy Paul]

12499225 is for a set, the individual one's are 17122490

ie: Buy a box of 16 from USA under the GM 12499225 Part No for US$120ish .......or let Holden sell you up to 16 individual lifters under the 17122490 number for list AUD$90ea.

L98 has 16 normal LS lifters.
L76 has 8 normal LS lifters + 8 AFM lifters.

Normal LS lifters = 17122490 if you need to buy one or 12499225 for a box of 16.
You're correct Holden don't use the full box GM part number.

[CapriceV8]

Paul,
It was just the serpentine belt. The imaginary wolf is dead. Thanks for your patience and all your advice.

Greg.

[Crazy Paul]

Paul,
It was just the serpentine belt. The imaginary wolf is dead. Thanks for your patience and all your advice.
Greg.

See Post #8 above.
: )
Glad it was something simple.

[CapriceV8]

RE: post #8, yes, they did in fact run it without the belt first, and the sound disappeared. (I was a bit concerned about the WAY they removed the belt - something to do with a spanner and the tensioner - there was a loud BANG when they started the car - this was the procedure they used to remove the belt!! It was not a dealer)

Greg.

[CapriceV8]

Well, I'm back. If I didn't have lifter noise before, I do have it now. (I've had two opinions). I'm told I may need a new camshaft as well.

As I was advised earlier by HSV-GTS-300, I am talking to Greg @Pace Performance about parts (thanks again for that).

My dealer says that a likely cause of the problem is the high amount of idling that I do. (and I definitely do a LOT of idling). They have suggested that I fit a higher flow oil pump. Can anyone recommend a pump that I could source from Pace?

What camshaft do I ask for, or would I be best to source that locally?

Note that I had my idle RPM increased to 650 RPM (standard is 550) about a year ago, to ensure that my battery would maintain charge under worst case conditions. (I noticed that the battery would be placed under load when idling, with the A/C on high, and the high speed engine fan also on) Is it possible that this increase in RPM would have increased my idle oil pressure, obviating the need to fit the higher flow oil pump? I realise we can simply measure the pressure, in any case.

I'm disappointed, because another driver actually warned me about this problem. He said the engines go at "about 200,000km", and that it was something to do with the oil pressure, and idling. I then called two Holden dealers, and asked them whether this was true, and they said they didn't know anything about it. I asked them whether there was any preventative action I could take, but they said no. Now that I have the problem, my dealer knows all about it, and suggested the higher flow oil pump. Big sigh.

Greg.
p.s Just a reminder that I am in Australia, with the Holden Caprice, with the L98 engine.

[TopFig1]

My dealer replaced the camshaft and all 16 lifters. Problem is gone.


Fig

[Crazy Paul]

My dealer says that a likely cause of the problem is the high amount of idling that I do. (and I definitely do a LOT of idling). They have suggested that I fit a higher flow oil pump. Can anyone recommend a pump that I could source from Pace?
What camshaft do I ask for, or would I be best to source that locally?
p.s Just a reminder that I am in Australia, with the Holden Caprice, with the L98 engine.

L76/L92 (AFM) oilpump flows about 20% more than L98/LS2/LS3 oilpump.
12612289
http://paceperformance.com/i-5131667-12612289-ls-standard-oil-pump.html

I don't have the L98 camshaft Part No at hand but can find out.
As stated previously, get everything you can from USA or you'll pay way too much locally.

[Crazy Paul]

2008-2009 6.0 L98 Camshaft Part No 12625439

[CapriceV8]

Thanks Paul - I have already ordered the stuff from Pace, so it's too late now. (I should have made another reply here to save you the work - my apologies). I have not ordered the camshaft, and will source an aftermarket one locally.

The oil pump I have on order is not the same part you recommended. It is 17801830. Do you think that will still be suitable?

Note that my idle speed was increased to 650rpm a while ago, at my request, because the battery was being placed under load when idling, with the A/C on high, and with the high speed engine fan on. (the fan will often stay on indefinitely when idling in hot weather). Do you think that this might increase my idle oil pressure, perhaps obviating the need to fit the high flow pump? (in any case, we will measure the pressure before commencing work)

The work is being carried out by a performance tuner - not a dealer.

Thanks again for all your help.

Greg.

[Crazy Paul]

If you google 17801830 not much info comes up except some guy on ls1tech took one apart and measured everything. He recons it has a larger than stock outlet port. It's marketed as a high volume by GMPP so should be better than stock.
I don't see the need for going to the AFM high volume pump.
Boosting up your idle speed will help with idle oil pressure.