09-06-04-026A: Identifying Non-GM (Aftermarket) Engine and Transmission Calibrations

[WickedMom]

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e164/jessika1027/bulletins/calibrations.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e164/jessika1027/bulletins/calibrations2.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e164/jessika1027/bulletins/calibrations3.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e164/jessika1027/bulletins/calibrations4.jpg

[Night Train]

Ah shit.... :hang:

[christiancoach]

Ouch!

[dandragonrage]

Will they be able to tell if we save our stock calibration and flash back to it before taking it in?

P.S. US warranty law will still apply if the calibration did not cause any problems, though it looks like you'd have to sue them to get anything in that case.

[WickedMom]

Warranty coverage is based on the equipment and calibrations that were released on the vehicle at time of sale, or subsequently updated by GM. That’s because GM testing and validation matches the calibration to a host of criteria that is essential to assure reliability, durability and emissions performance over the life of the warranty coverage and beyond. Stresses resulting from calibrations different from those tested and released by GM can damage or weaken components, leading to poor performance and or shortened life.

Additionally, non-GM (aftermarket) issued engine control modifications often do not meet the same emissions performance standards as GM issued calibrations. Depending on state statutes, individuals who install engine control module calibrations that put the vehicle outside the parameters of emissions certification standards may be subject to fines and/or penalties.

I think it would be a very hard battle.

[Tjay74]

Exactly, GM knows if they find the calibration has been changed they will force the consumer at thier cost to fight GM in court to prove what caused the failure.

Either find dealers that are mod friendly or else flash the stock calibrations before taking the car in for service.

[kennyk]

Back to a previously unaswered question...if you reflash the ECM back to OEM spec does the dealer have visiblity to that change?

[Chewy]

Exactly, GM knows if they find the calibration has been changed they will force the consumer at thier cost to fight GM in court to prove what caused the failure.

Either find dealers that are mod friendly or else flash the stock calibrations before taking the car in for service.


They can see the flashes though!

I have a stock ECM just for this reason... :)

[Tjay74]

They can not see the flashes, the flash counter in the G8 ECM does not work. The only vehicles with flash counters that work are the diesel vehicles and maybe the new camaro ECM.

It has already been checked that the G8 flash counter is not used and does not work. Plus you cant swap out the TCM which would still show residual flash info and also you would have to do a crank relearn which will also show in the historical info in the ECM.

So swapping the ECM out does nothing, it still leaves a trail of evidence.

[Chewy]

They can not see the flashes, the flash counter in the G8 ECM does not work. The only vehicles with flash counters that work are the diesel vehicles and maybe the new camaro ECM.

It has already been checked that the G8 flash counter is not used and does not work. Plus you cant swap out the TCM which would still show residual flash info and also you would have to do a crank relearn which will also show in the historical info in the ECM.

So swapping the ECM out does nothing, it still leaves a trail of evidence.

Not what VMS told me...

Chris

[piecesparts]

SO, where does that leave VMS and their compadres, in this mess?

[Chewy]

SO, where does that leave VMS and their compadres, in this mess?


Supposedly if you got the stealth tune you'll be OK.

I am by ALL means ignorant on this subject and have to believe what my tuner tells me... :wacko:

[Kirk@VectorMotorsports]

SO, where does that leave VMS and their compadres, in this mess?

That bulletin is a couple years old. It is just copied on the GM service website from car to car as newer models come out. So this is not new.

There is no mess really.

1. There is no flash counter in either the ECM or TCM on the G8. The only flash counters I have seen are on some Duramax ECM's. Keep in mind we have the same tools here that the dealers have.

2. All Vector tunes will report the proper CVN numbers when requested by the Tech 2 or GM MDI. Meaning, even if you have our tune and they perform the test in the bulletin the tune will not show.

All of that being said, in all of the tunes that we have sold since 2006 by mail order, we have yet to see a warranty claim due to the performance calibration.

[dandragonrage]

All of that being said, in all of the tunes that we have sold since 2006 by mail order, we have yet to see a warranty claim due to the performance calibration.

The issue is more whether they will deny a claim that was not caused by the tune just because you have the tune. It would be illegal if they've got no technical basis, but it would most likely be tough to fight.

[Chewy]

Thanks Kirk!

[Blackrider]

They can not see the flashes, the flash counter in the G8 ECM does not work. The only vehicles with flash counters that work are the diesel vehicles and maybe the new camaro ECM.

It has already been checked that the G8 flash counter is not used and does not work. Plus you cant swap out the TCM which would still show residual flash info and also you would have to do a crank relearn which will also show in the historical info in the ECM.

So swapping the ECM out does nothing, it still leaves a trail of evidence.
Ha, that reminds me, when I got the VMS tune for my G6 GTP I was able to get the dealer to do a relearn under warranty. lol That was before I had my Dash Hawk.

Sorry back on topic.

[WickedMom]

Actually, this bulletin is new this is the 1st revision of if(and that was to add the pictures of the tech2). It is the most indepth bulletin for gas engines that GM has released. They never have required snapshots of the calibrations to release a warranty engine or transmission before. Duramax has had similar requests, but only for diesels.
Before, it was just a known 'dont do it' type situation. Now, they really are clamping down.

[Blackrider]

Actually, this bulletin is new this is the 1st revision of if(and that was to add the pictures of the tech2). It is the most indepth bulletin for gas engines that GM has released. They never have required snapshots of the calibrations to release a warranty engine or transmission before. Duramax has had similar requests, but only for diesels.
Before, it was just a known 'dont do it' type situation. Now, they really are clamping down.

If the date on its correct than its been discussed a few times already, and if I'm reading Kirks response correctly the VMS tune is still undetectable by the Bulletins standards.

I've also herd directly from a friend of mine who is a GM tech. In 2011 GM will now be able to use Onstar to Detect Aftermarket calibrations (Only for 2011 model years and up)
Lets face it, its software and historically any time a company finds a new way to safeguard their software from piracy, people have already engineered a workaround before the safeguard has been has even been released. 90% of the time I think its the people creating the safeguards that are hacking them. lol

[Night Train]

Well, where does this put folks out there that have used VMS and/or Cortex? It looks as if they can tell if there has been some sort of change in tune. If that is the case and I read this right, you are screwed if something goes wrong with your car. I understand that GM would have to prove that the defect was caused by the tune. However, we all know GM will make us fight it. I don't know the first thing to do (besides get an attorney), if this happened to me.

Anyway, what should people do at this point? Keep the tunes in and pray nothing goes wrong? Return to stock and pray nothing goes wrong?

[DRCUSTOMPARTS]

When you reload the stock tune with the Cortex the CVN numbers will be correct, so there's no need to sweat it.

[Kirk@VectorMotorsports]

Well, where does this put folks out there that have used VMS and/or Cortex? It looks as if they can tell if there has been some sort of change in tune. If that is the case and I read this right, you are screwed if something goes wrong with your car. I understand that GM would have to prove that the defect was caused by the tune. However, we all know GM will make us fight it. I don't know the first thing to do (besides get an attorney), if this happened to me.

Anyway, what should people do at this point? Keep the tunes in and pray nothing goes wrong? Return to stock and pray nothing goes wrong?

You might want to re-read my post above.

[G8GT594]

Ya and if your tuned is locked and they need to flash it, guess what? It won't matter if the CVN numbers match or not.

Someone correct me if im wrong...

[RapidG8GXP]

Personally I think it's entirely appropriate that GM is taking steps to identify aftermarket changes to ECM's before agreeing to warranty any repairs to engines/transmissions/drivelines.

[Kirk@VectorMotorsports]

Ya and if your tuned is locked and they need to flash it, guess what? It won't matter if the CVN numbers match or not.

Someone correct me if im wrong...

You are correct. The ECM can not be updated by GM with the tune installed. The TCM can though.

That is why most of our customers have a PowerFlash cable, so they can return to stock if necessary. If they do not have a PowerFlash we will send them the FlashXpress cable to return it to stock.

There has not been a update for the G8 in a long time though.

[Kirk@VectorMotorsports]

Personally I think it's entirely appropriate that GM is taking steps to identify aftermarket changes to ECM's before agreeing to warranty any repairs to engines/transmissions/drivelines.

I agree, if a tune caused a failure GM should not have to pay.

[TCorzett]

Ya and if your tuned is locked and they need to flash it, guess what? It won't matter if the CVN numbers match or not.


You are correct. The ECM can not be updated by GM with the tune installed. The TCM can though.

In my recent trip to the dealer (http://forum.grrrr8.net/showthread.php?t=13598) on the back of a flatbed, I didn't have the ability to re-flash my ECU/TCM with the stock profiles. The dealer flashed both of them back to stock (part of the repair, at least for the ECU) and didn't say anything at all. They were even in the warranty vs. not mode due to the damage (caused by me). I was a little concerned about having the VMS tune installed (I normally flash it back just in case), but it wasn't an issue.

-Todd...

[Ktlplxm]

If the date on its correct than its been discussed a few times already, and if I'm reading Kirks response correctly the VMS tune is still undetectable by the Bulletins standards.

I've also herd directly from a friend of mine who is a GM tech. In 2011 GM will now be able to use Onstar to Detect Aftermarket calibrations (Only for 2011 model years and up)
Lets face it, its software and historically any time a company finds a new way to safeguard their software from piracy, people have already engineered a workaround before the safeguard has been has even been released. 90% of the time I think its the people creating the safeguards that are hacking them. lol

Another reason not to use or subscribe to Onstar. When I bough mine I refused to have it activated at all despite their urging that it is free for XX months. Its never a good idea to have someone have the ability to watch you 24/7 or allow remote access to your property


Well, where does this put folks out there that have used VMS and/or Cortex? It looks as if they can tell if there has been some sort of change in tune. If that is the case and I read this right, you are screwed if something goes wrong with your car. I understand that GM would have to prove that the defect was caused by the tune. However, we all know GM will make us fight it. I don't know the first thing to do (besides get an attorney), if this happened to me.

Anyway, what should people do at this point? Keep the tunes in and pray nothing goes wrong? Return to stock and pray nothing goes wrong?

Its one of those areas, we all have to chance when you change things. We know that bolt ons don't do anything to hurt a vehicle (unless you buy just a bad piece or instal it incorrectly, and if you do that with an aftermarket piece chances are you can do it with a stock on e as well). Gm knows this as well. The Techs know it. Everyone knows it. They just enjoy getting an excuse to wash their hands of responsibility when it cost them money. Do headers cause engine failure? No. Does a properly designed CAI cause engine failure? No. But if you tune for them (to maintain a proper air fuel ratio), they get to walk away with zero responsibility.


Personally I think it's entirely appropriate that GM is taking steps to identify aftermarket changes to ECM's before agreeing to warranty any repairs to engines/transmissions/drivelines.

If they would be fair about it, maybe, but they would look at anything as an excuse to get out of fixing it even if it is a faulty part. Look at the sheer quantity of stock G8's with trans flare and shift issues. If a car is modded and displays the exact same problem, then it wasn't the mods that caused it. It was the original GM piece that is bad or faulty. this type of thing allows them to sidestep an obligation by way of technicality.

[GXPaycheck]

I wonder what would happen if GM offered a performance warranty (say maybe 1k extra with car purchase) that covered aftermarket tunes/additions. Additions would have to be done by the dealer and mods/vendors should be GM approved. They would probably make $$ compared to the small number of mod caused issues and send more customers into GM shops. Non GM shops could be approved as vendors.

Just a thought.

[Ktlplxm]

I wonder what would happen if GM offered a performance warranty (say maybe 1k extra with car purchase) that covered aftermarket tunes/additions. Additions would have to be done by the dealer and mods/vendors should be GM approved. They would probably make $$ compared to the small number of mod caused issues and send more customers into GM shops. Non GM shops could be approved as vendors.

Just a thought.

That would be cool.

[-Ray-]

I wonder what would happen if GM offered a performance warranty (say maybe 1k extra with car purchase) that covered aftermarket tunes/additions. Additions would have to be done by the dealer and mods/vendors should be GM approved. They would probably make $$ compared to the small number of mod caused issues and send more customers into GM shops. Non GM shops could be approved as vendors.

Just a thought.

That wouldn't work.
It makes sense.

[SpeedRacerX]

That would be awesome.

[Ktlplxm]

That wouldn't work.
It makes sense.

+1