BAP or Meth Injection or Both?

[G8GT721]

I am looking into a cam swap, and I thinking about fuel. I don't think i will run out of fuel but i don't really know. I don't want to run out of fuel, and not know which route to go. I know the guys at Livernios and many other members have had success using Boost-A-Pump(BAP).

I understand that a BAP, just increases voltage to the stock fuel pump, which increases the output from the pump. It is probably the cheapest route($250+/-) since no additional fuel lines need to be run or reservoir tanks installed.

I have also been looking into Meth injection systems, and It seems like it is benefits for both NA or boosted setups. I copied the below from Alcohol Injection Systems website. These kits can be fender mount ($200-400) or Trunk mount( $350-550).


• Lower air temperatures by 50-200+ degrees
• Reduces cylinder temperatures by 200+ degrees
• Increase your 87-93 pump gas by 15-20+ points
• Increase horsepower safely by 10-15%
• Allows you to safely run more boost and timing
• Cools and protects the tops of your pistons
• Longer more stable combustion expansion and progression
• Removes carbon build up from combustion chambers, pistons and valves
• Reduces & helps eliminate damaging engine detonation & pre-ignition
• No need for expensive racing fuel or additives

The BAP appears to be maintenance free and simple, and the only con to me is the added strain to the pump. The Meth kits appear to have some maintenance such as adding fluid. But is seems to provide more benefits, then just more fuel.

Okay after that long ass post, now to my question

What should someone do, BAP or Meth injection, both?

[Ktlplxm]

The meth is good if you are using it on a FI set-up, but its primary usage is not as a "fuel" per say, but rather as a chemical intercooler. In a boosted set-up I'd rather have a Meth kit than a BAP anyday.

The insert above basically keeps repeating the same things in different ways, and can be a little misleading.

• Lower air temperatures by 50-200+ degrees
yes, hence chemical intercooler
• Reduces cylinder temperatures by 200+ degrees
yes, same as above
• Increase your 87-93 pump gas by 15-20+ points
no your fuel is the same octane it always is, the cooling affect mimics higher octane
• Increase horsepower safely by 10-15%
not necesarily
• Allows you to safely run more boost and timing
yes because it is cooler. Same a s intercooler allows you to do this
• Cools and protects the tops of your pistons
cools, yes, protects no more than a winter day
• Longer more stable combustion expansion and progression
Cooler denser air burns slower
• Removes carbon build up from combustion chambers, pistons and valves
result of duration of burn, alcohol does clean a little but not a ton
• Reduces & helps eliminate damaging engine detonation & pre-ignition
duh, its COOLER
• No need for expensive racing fuel or additives
big myth. increased octane gives you ZERO hp gain, UNLESS you are detonating. It allows increased timing which in turn creates more power, but if you put 110 octane in an 87 engine you do not increase power.

Even if it did really increase your octane rating, it would not increase your quantity of fuel, just the quality.

The Boost-a-Pump on the other hand, DOES increase the amount of fuel available to the engine.

[G8GT721]

The meth is good if you are using it on a FI set-up, but its primary usage is not as a "fuel" per say, but rather as a chemical intercooler. In a boosted set-up I'd rather have a Meth kit than a BAP anyday.

that's what i was thinking, but have no experience in it and wanted to get some opinions/answers

[G8GT721]

Even if it did really increase your octane rating, it would not increase your quantity of fuel, just the quality.

The Boost-a-Pump on the other hand, DOES increase the amount of fuel available to the engine.

so if i did not have enough fuek available, would meth be just a band-aid to the situation? So it would be best to have a BAP for the added fuel quanitity and meth for cooler air charge?

[Ktlplxm]

so if i did not have enough fuek available, would meth be just a band-aid to the situation? So it would be best to have a BAP for the added fuel quanitity and meth for cooler air charge?

Yes, meth would be a band-aid. If you get a good quality system like the Alky Control, then you can set the system to spray alot more in the event you need to use it as a fuel, but it is quick fix. If you are planning on staying NA your factory fuel pump will last a long time. We have the HO HSV pump from the factory, not the standard Commodore pumps. I'm not even particularly partial to BAP... I think they are also an inadequate way of solving the problem, a quick fix. Once a suitable fuel system becomes available in the tank, that will be the way to go

[p71]

Meth is a bad soloution for what you think you need. It is not extra fuel all it does is allow you to burn more fuel at a lower temperature (or the same at higher temperature, or the same at higher pressure, or more advance...) Non of that actually halps in the event you are going lean... in fact it hurts... you car is going to want more fuel with the alcohol...

Your main problem is that you are swinging at phantoms... there are at least a dozen cam cars on here and not one of the NA ones is running out of fuel or seeing pressure drop offs (unless I am missing something)... Our pumps are probably good for something like 500whp NA.

[G8GT721]

I have a set of twins, so for now i should just go with a BAP

[parish8]

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Even if it did really increase your octane rating, it would not increase your quantity of fuel, just the quality.

a meth kit can and does and a ton of fuel to your fuel system. how can dumping extra fuel(meth) not add fuel?

for example on my car i was at 100%dc, 7psi, 13/1 a/f ratio without the meth kit.

now with the meth kit i am at 80%dc, 10psi, 11/1 a/f ratio with a meth kit.

for a na set up i dont see messing with a meth kit but it wouldn't surprise me if a person was able to squeeze 20hp more from having one. on a boosted set up it is a great way to take care of multiple issues. adds more fuel, in my case a lot more fuel along with allowing you to run more boost/timing.

if i had a kit laying around and lots of free dyno time i would give it a try to see if any more power could be made. swaping to 100% meth would add something like 6-10% more power just from the oxygen in the fuel. swaping out 20% of your fuel supply would have to have some effect and then there is the cooler ait's.

[Ktlplxm]

a meth kit can and does and a ton of fuel to your fuel system. how can dumping extra fuel(meth) not add fuel?

for example on my car i was at 100%dc, 7psi, 13/1 a/f ratio without the meth kit.

now with the meth kit i am at 80%dc, 10psi, 11/1 a/f ratio with a meth kit.

for a na set up i dont see messing with a meth kit but it wouldn't surprise me if a person was able to squeeze 20hp more from having one. on a boosted set up it is a great way to take care of multiple issues. adds more fuel, in my case a lot more fuel along with allowing you to run more boost/timing.

if i had a kit laying around and lots of free dyno time i would give it a try to see if any more power could be made. swaping to 100% meth would add something like 6-10% more power just from the oxygen in the fuel. swaping out 20% of your fuel supply would have to have some effect and then there is the cooler ait's.

First off Methanol is not designed to be used as a fuel source, it is a chemical intercooler, any additional fuel benefit is a by product. It takes twice as much alcohol to get the same power as does gasoline. That is why it is used as described. Using it for a fuel source is foolish. Secondly, you are not dumping a ton of methanol into the engine, you are actually introducing a small amount. Thirdly, if you dump a ton of Methanol into the engine you are hoping, or wishing for perfect equal distribution in an intake plenum. Lastly, most system recommend using a 50/50 water/methanol mixture for safety concerns... it doesn't burn well. What it does do, is cool extremely well, thereby fulfilling its purpose.

[Devilish34]

I have a set of twins, so for now i should just go with a BAP

Too bad they're turbos and not blonde's

[parish8]

First off Methanol is not designed to be used as a fuel source, it is a chemical intercooler, any additional fuel benefit is a by product. It takes twice as much alcohol to get the same power as does gasoline. That is why it is used as described. Using it for a fuel source is foolish. Secondly, you are not dumping a ton of methanol into the engine, you are actually introducing a small amount. Thirdly, if you dump a ton of Methanol into the engine you are hoping, or wishing for perfect equal distribution in an intake plenum. Lastly, most system recommend using a 50/50 water/methanol mixture for safety concerns... it doesn't burn well. What it does do, is cool extremely well, thereby fulfilling its purpose.

foolish huh. :). i guess i am a fool. my car is running 11.44@124.5 with nothing more than twins, dr's and a meth kit. pretty sure a converter would get me into the 10's.

methanol is definitely designed to be used as a fuel source. tons of race cars run 100% methanol. we have a street car that we have a duel fuel system on where it idles and cruses on 100% pump gas and when you floor it it switches over to 100% methanol. we drive this car to the track every friday and took it on a 1300mile road trip last week.

yes you do need twice as much of it but it only cost $1.50/gallon and it is better than $7/gallon race fuel.

the dry intake argument is somewhat valid but there are 2 arguments against it. one is the wet nitrous kits have been getting by for a long time with no issue. the other is methanol evaporates very quickly. you can dump a ton of it into the hot stream of intake air and have it turn into a vapor. that is how it does it's cooling is the evaporation process.

you are misinformed and spreading bad info.

[done12many2]

methanol is definitely designed to be used as a fuel source. tons of race cars run 100% methanol.

He's right.

[Ktlplxm]

Spreading bad info huh? Well. If we are comparing vehicles we have success with, I must be wrong in that as well. I personally own and drive a 9 sec Procharged LT1 that utilizes a methanol system for the sole pupose of intercooling. That is its job and thats what it does. Just because you utilize meth as a fuel doesn't mean thats what it purpose is. Do you have a completely stock fuel system on your vehicle? Do you still utilize the factory pump and your only additional fuel is meth? I don't know you personnally, but I'm willing to bet that isnt the case. The injectors probably aren't stock either, and although it may be, I doubt the regulator is a stock one either. If any of these conditiona stand true, then you are the one misinforming people. Running meth just as the additional fuel source, the only additional fuel source is a bad idea. I'm not saying that it will not work, just that it isn't the best way, nor isd that what the system he is asking about designed for.
Why are you comparing it in price to the race fuel? With the appropriat e amount of fuel (93 octane) and using the alky as a cooler, race fuels are not neccesary. you control the detonation not through octane, but rather through the air temperatures.
On the intake counter argument, it isn't a worry about "pooling", but rather of distibution. With huge amounts of meth you get a lot in some cylinders, and not as much in other, especially with factory style intakes. When comparing to nitrous, even wet systems become a fogger system after a certain limti for the exact reason of equal distribution.
The guy that started the thread asked for information. If he ask most Alky system designers they will tell him that an adequate fuel system is on of the first things he should address. You are intitled to your opinion, as are we all. Dont make it personal with anyone by throwing unwarranted accusations. It hasn't gotten anyone very far. Doubt that will change.

[parish8]

your the one that called me foolish, that did feel a little personal but thats not why i am replying. just looking to put out correct info.

yes my g8 has a completely stock fuel system. stock injectors, stock pump. 475rwhp on a mustang dyno at 11/1 a/f ratio and injectors at 80%.

i did talk to the people that sell the alcohol injection kit(ais). i told them i was out of injector and looking for supplemental fuel system. he told me this is a common use of their kit. suggested duel 14gph nozzles and adjusting the kit so they are full on before i hit max boost.

you can use your meth kit anyway you want but the fact is you can use a meth kit to add a significant amount of fuel. that is how i do it on my g8, thats how i did it on my 1050rwhp truck.

trying to say meth does not make sence as a fuel is really off base. it is a great fuel for any performance applications if you are willing to work around the corosiveness and willing to build a fuel system that has the ability to flow that much fluid.

[Ktlplxm]

I said using it as a fuel source is foolish, you said "i guess I am a fool". The g8 should not be running out of fuel at that point regardless, I've made ove 500 whp and not had the slightest hiccup as far as fuel is concerned, we do not run into fuel issues until approx 550 whp.
Once again, what you can use it for vs what it is designed for are two different things. I've already stated that it can be used for fuel, but that is not its original intened purpose.
I'm glad you brought up the corrosiveness, however, for that is something most people never bring up. I'm also glad you brought to light the fact that you have to build a system that has the ability to flow that much fluid. MOST kits that are available on the market provide the bare minimum in equiptment and hardware, and will not flow the required amount of alcohol neccesary to be used in the fueling. Anyone who has ever purchased the SNOW kits (the most prominent) can attest tro that fact. I've stated in previous posts that good quality kits can be used in the supplemental capacity, but everyone of them seriously recommends other fuel upgrades when doing so. Beneath the 600whp level almost all of your builders suggest fuel systems as an upgrade. With an adequate fuel system neither the methanol nor the BAP are a neccesity. In fact, with a good fuel system, neither is necessary below 600whp. I am curious however, do you run a 50/50 mixture, or a straight meth? I only ask, because, once again, most of the readily available kits recommend 50/50 mixes due to the event of fire. I've never thought that was a legit concern but it something that most recommend

[parish8]

i think i have made my point. much of what you post is not what i have been told or have experienced. ais suggested 100% meth for my set up. julio from alkey control also suggests 100% meth. both of those kits are capable of supplying at least 100hp worth of fuel. AIS told me this is a common use of their product.

i didn't say i was out of fuel pump. i said i was out of injector and the meth kit took care of that problem along with letting me run more boost than pump gas alone would have.

methanol has been used as a motor vehicle fuel source for decades. i really dont know where you are getting that is wasn't intended to be used as a fuel source.

[Ktlplxm]

i think i have made my point. much of what you post is not what i have been told or have experienced. ais suggested 100% meth for my set up. julio from alkey control also suggests 100% meth. both of those kits are capable of supplying at least 100hp worth of fuel. AIS told me this is a common use of their product.

i didn't say i was out of fuel pump. i said i was out of injector and the meth kit took care of that problem along with letting me run more boost than pump gas alone would have.

methanol has been used as a motor vehicle fuel source for decades. i really dont know where you are getting that is wasn't intended to be used as a fuel source.

I guess this is where the internet comes in handy; it is a place to compare opinions. I never said you were running out of fuel pump. I mentioned running out of fuel. Whether it be pump, injector, pressure, running out is running out. I was told from Julio at Alkycontrol (from whom I have purchased 3 systems) that I should never rely on my alky system as a replacement for an adequate fuel system; that if my alky fails for any reason a good fuel system will cover it. However, if the fuel system for some reason fails, the alky will not pick up the slack. Who knows, maybe its the hp difference between our projects. An adequately prepared fuel system can survive without alcohol plain and simple. However, an alcohol system, purchased over the counter, not a custom one off system, does not survive for long without an adequate fuel system to back it up (at high hp levels). Even if a person is given a 150hp variance in coverage by alcohol, that still means at that point a fuel system upgrade is needed. Another thing for G8GT721 to consider is the availability of methanol in his area. It may not be something that he can come by easily. If he goes on a trip and suddenly find himself running low, he may not be able to find any more; after all it isn't like its found at every store. Sure he can pick up washer fluid, but it isn't the same mixture and if he is tuned specifically for 100% or didn't buy a kit with a progressor box, he is screwed. However, if he has a system that requires only 91-93 octane to operate, he is fine. He can get that anywhere. The frequency with which BAP's fail is extremely low. The frequency with which cars with additional fuel pumps or upgraded systems fail is low. A person could argue that the likelihood of running out of 100% methanol and not finding it in stock when you need it is higher than running out of premium fuel.
I'm glad your alky kit works well for you. I hope it continues to do so. G8GT721 asked for opinions, and he has them. He can dcide for himself which way he would like to go.

[jimmytt6]

There is a good article in the new GM High Performance magazine on a Meth kit they put on a G8 Magnacharger. They gained around 25hp and TQ just by adding kit. Can't remember exact #'s but the they started out in the article not really believer's in Meth and after testing they really like it..check it out..the guys down at Precision Motorsports of Florida did the testing...

[Ktlplxm]

No one is doubting the validity of Meth, just what would make more sense for the OP

[edmanet]

Too bad they're turbos and not blonde's

They could be blondes, brunettes, or redheads......I wouldn't care...LMAO
This thread is just too serious........

[Tempest2000]

Yeah I'm bring this up from the dead, but I'm looking to see who has used meth with a maggie long term. I've been told that meth will eat away the internal coatings of the maggie. Anyone have issues with that? I see a lot of the camaro's running meth kits with maggies and KB's just curious.

[parish8]

cant help you on the coating question but i can say my meth kit has been working great. i am up to 12psi on pump gas and the meth kit. my bap on the other hand is not working so well. 2 hurt factory fuel pumps. each one only lasted a month or so after i put the bap on. i have used bap's for years on lots of cars with no issue but the g8 pump doesn't like one.

even though the meth kit has been working well i am going to build a big fuel system and try some e85. sounds like fun.

[norm8332]

Yeah I'm bring this up from the dead, but I'm looking to see who has used meth with a maggie long term. I've been told that meth will eat away the internal coatings of the maggie. Anyone have issues with that? I see a lot of the camaro's running meth kits with maggies and KB's just curious.

+1, I have a kit right here and wondered about this myself. How I missed this thread is beyond me. Great info.

Parish8, Was that a KB bap?

[SFC]

cant help you on the coating question but i can say my meth kit has been working great. i am up to 12psi on pump gas and the meth kit. my bap on the other hand is not working so well. 2 hurt factory fuel pumps. each one only lasted a month or so after i put the bap on. i have used bap's for years on lots of cars with no issue but the g8 pump doesn't like one.

even though the meth kit has been working well i am going to build a big fuel system and try some e85. sounds like fun.

I'm going to say f-it and order up the dual pump tank from .au if I still have the car this winter. Guess we'll see.

[WickedMom]

The other thing too keep in mind is if you tuned for meth and happen to run out unexpectedly.... It could result in KABOOM!

Plus the possible issue with the rotor coating...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[1stGXPmaggie2.3]

Just my experience with meth after about 10,000 miles, I removed maggie to do some upgrades and took a peek at internals when servicing maggie, coating looked fine, but could have different outcomes for others with different meth ratio mixes or just different circumstances and yes theres always a risk of things going wrong. Ive had bap for about 15,000 miles and havent had any issues. Also running a high amp and big guage wiring fuel pump kit I made to work with the bap. System has been really reliable. Must have when playing with these cars, is data, like a fuel pressure guage, wide band guage, etc.

[G8GT594]

I'll be running BAP and meth soon. Glad this thread was brought back up. For now though, race fuel and 10psi or so. So far 0 issues with BAP.

[VegasNate]

You only live once so both sounds good. If either one fails it could be a fiasco as you already know. My BAP has worked fine for a year. It comes out next week though. :devil:

[1ChargedG8]

I'm running 11psi of boost with a Snow Performance Stage II (75%meth/25%water mix) and a KB BAP. It's been in the car for 2 years, no issue whatsoever.

[Ktlplxm]

I seriously doubt the meth would hurt the coating. I've never seen evidence of it. On the tuning, I would advise against running the meth as the sole reliance of fuel. It is a good cooler, and a great supplement, but shouldnt be used in place of an adequate fuel supply (ie better injectors at least). I've run it on several of my personal vehicles with great success, but they are always set up so that even if the meth does fail, there is enough fuel.

[FLUBYU]

I've had a snow stage 3 kit on for about 5k miles and I love it. It really gives me peace of mind when I flog it in this Florida heat.