how big can i go?

[jdeserio]

I will be ordering a camshaft dod delete package soon!
how big can i go for a daily driver???
I was thinking lowest 224/230 and highest 240?
i know tigger has a 240!

[MGMG8GT]

I will be ordering a camshaft dod delete package soon!
how big can i go for a daily driver???
I was thinking lowest 224/230 and highest 240?
i know tigger has a 240!

A gigantic cam is not always the answer.

[Atlas]

contact PatrickG... he is the cam guru on this site and many others...

[jdeserio]

contact PatrickG... he is the cam guru on this site and many others...

Patrick G i need your help!
I know that the biggest isnt always the best but, i want the most efficient cam..Charlie anybody?

[Mike P]

Your probably going to want something on a 114 or 115 LSA for a daily driver.....

If you do contact Patrick G, let us know what you are going with, I might be replacing my cam for more of a daily driver cam, in the future....



...

[Patrick G]

Once you go over 228 duration on the intake side with an intake centerline of 110, your piston to valve clearance gets tight. You can run a little bigger on the intake with a later intake centerline, but your dynamic compression will drop and your power under the curve will not improve a great deal. The racers running cams in the mid 230s have no idea how tight they're running their P to V.

[Mike P]

Once you go over 228 duration on the intake side with an intake centerline of 110, your piston to valve clearance gets tight. You can run a little bigger on the intake with a later intake centerline, but your dynamic compression will drop and your power under the curve will not improve a great deal. The racers running cams in the mid 230s have no idea how tight they're running their P to V.



Got any suggestions on good daily driver cams that would be decent for the drag strip too.

The Livernois Stage 1 cam has a very good past track record.....



...

[Patrick G]

Got any suggestions on good daily driver cams that would be decent for the drag strip too.

The Livernois Stage 1 cam has a very good past track record.....



...The Livernois stage 1 224/230 .581/.592 114LSA cam is ground with Comp XE-R lobes which are good for making power, but I don't like them with heavy L92 intake valves. The acceleration and jerk of XE-R lobes require that you run dual valve springs and the valvetrain stability is not as good as some newer custom lobes.

A 218/226 .595/.598 112LSA +2 advance is about ideal for a street/strip G8 with headers. Heavy vehicles like the G8 need more mid-range punch and too much duration and too late of an intake valve closing point will make you slower in the 1/4 mile. You could also run this cam on a 114LSA with 4 degrees of advance if you were leaning more toward 99% daily driving and less toward strip action.

If you were running headers and a 3200+ rpm stall converter, you could run something more like a 227/235 .614/.621 113LSA +3 advance. This is about as big as I'd recommend in a street strip combo that could still be daily driven. Anything bigger would have too many drivability downsides to justify the increased power. Remember, the L92/LS3 heads don't need near the duration or overlap as the cathedral port heads on LS1s and LS2s.

[99-LS1-SS]

Patrick, would a higher LSA be possible with the lift and duration of the last cam you mentions?

227/235 .614/.621 113LSA +3

[Mike P]

The Livernois stage 1 224/230 .581/.592 114LSA cam is ground with Comp XE-R lobes which are good for making power, but I don't like them with heavy L92 intake valves. The acceleration and jerk of XE-R lobes require that you run dual valve springs and the valvetrain stability is not as good as some newer custom lobes.

A 218/226 .595/.598 112LSA +2 advance is about ideal for a street/strip G8 with headers. Heavy vehicles like the G8 need more mid-range punch and too much duration and too late of an intake valve closing point will make you slower in the 1/4 mile. You could also run this cam on a 114LSA with 4 degrees of advance if you were leaning more toward 99% daily driving and less toward strip action.

If you were running headers and a 3200+ rpm stall converter, you could run something more like a 227/235 .614/.621 113LSA +3 advance. This is about as big as I'd recommend in a street strip combo that could still be daily driven. Anything bigger would have too many drivability downsides to justify the increased power. Remember, the L92/LS3 heads don't need near the duration or overlap as the cathedral port heads on LS1s and LS2s.



Thank you very much Patrick G, that is great cam information.



...

[Patrick G]

Patrick, would a higher LSA be possible with the lift and duration of the last cam you mentions?

227/235 .614/.621 113LSA +3Yes, you can run a wider LSA. The problem with running big duration and wide LSA though, is that you risk having very soft low and mid-range power and only see gains above 6300 rpm. You see, this is the second biggest mistake people make (first biggest is over-camming). When you run big duration with a wide LSA, your intake valve closing point is later, which lowers dynamic compression and raises the rate at which your motor makes peak power. The wider LSA would also open the exhaust valve earlier which reduces the time the piston is on the power stroke. Basically, you crack the exhaust valve while there is still considerable cylinder pressure pressing down on the piston, and your working energy goes down to zero. A later EVO keeps the piston on the power stroke longer.

With a wider LSA than ideal, instead of making peak power at 6100-6200 rpm, you might not make peak power until 6400-6500 rpm. The small gain at 6500 rpm (less than 5 rwhp) would be met with a 20 lb ft of torque loss at 2500-3500 rpm and at least 10 rwhp/rwtq less in the valuable 4500-6000 rpm range. This is where most motors spend their time during a 1/4 mile run. Unless you don't mind spinning your motor to 6800-7000 rpm, it is better to run less duration with a proper LSA than too much duration with too wide of an LSA.

[Devilish34]

Patrick, would a higher LSA be possible with the lift and duration of the last cam you mentions?

227/235 .614/.621 113LSA +3

Wednesday my car goes in to get this cam put in 223/231 .610"/.617" 114LSA +2

[G8-4-Speed]

A 218/226 .595/.598 112LSA +2 advance is about ideal for a street/strip G8 with headers. Heavy vehicles like the G8 need more mid-range punch and too much duration and too late of an intake valve closing point will make you slower in the 1/4 mile. You could also run this cam on a 114LSA with 4 degrees of advance if you were leaning more toward 99% daily driving and less toward strip action.

I like it, good specs. It is very close to the new Lunati cam profiles that I got cut for my motor. Excellent street manners, works great with stock converter. Can run without being tuned, mine worked with DoD hardware. Lunati specs are 217/225 114LSA +4. .323/.318 lobe lift. Running with 1.85 rockers and new style 918 Comp springs. Wish I would have went 112 LSA.

[Mike P]

Question:

What are Comp XE-R lobes and how is the 218/226 .595/.598 112LSA +2 cam different from the Livernois Stage 1 cam with the Comp XE-R lobes?



...




The Livernois stage 1 224/230 .581/.592 114LSA cam is ground with Comp XE-R lobes which are good for making power, but I don't like them with heavy L92 intake valves. The acceleration and jerk of XE-R lobes require that you run dual valve springs and the valvetrain stability is not as good as some newer custom lobes.

A 218/226 .595/.598 112LSA +2 advance is about ideal for a street/strip G8 with headers. Heavy vehicles like the G8 need more mid-range punch and too much duration and too late of an intake valve closing point will make you slower in the 1/4 mile. You could also run this cam on a 114LSA with 4 degrees of advance if you were leaning more toward 99% daily driving and less toward strip action.

If you were running headers and a 3200+ rpm stall converter, you could run something more like a 227/235 .614/.621 113LSA +3 advance. This is about as big as I'd recommend in a street strip combo that could still be daily driven. Anything bigger would have too many drivability downsides to justify the increased power. Remember, the L92/LS3 heads don't need near the duration or overlap as the cathedral port heads on LS1s and LS2s.

[jdeserio]

The Livernois stage 1 224/230 .581/.592 114LSA cam is ground with Comp XE-R lobes which are good for making power, but I don't like them with heavy L92 intake valves. The acceleration and jerk of XE-R lobes require that you run dual valve springs and the valvetrain stability is not as good as some newer custom lobes.

A 218/226 .595/.598 112LSA +2 advance is about ideal for a street/strip G8 with headers. Heavy vehicles like the G8 need more mid-range punch and too much duration and too late of an intake valve closing point will make you slower in the 1/4 mile. You could also run this cam on a 114LSA with 4 degrees of advance if you were leaning more toward 99% daily driving and less toward strip action.

If you were running headers and a 3200+ rpm stall converter, you could run something more like a 227/235 .614/.621 113LSA +3 advance. This is about as big as I'd recommend in a street strip combo that could still be daily driven. Anything bigger would have too many drivability downsides to justify the increased power. Remember, the L92/LS3 heads don't need near the duration or overlap as the cathedral port heads on LS1s and LS2s.

hey man, thanks for the good info. So your opinion of what would be the perfect cam for daily driver and a good racer is a 218/226 .595/.598 112LSA +2 advance? that seems a little small..but im down for whatever works the best in both worlds. what would you pick honestly for the best of both worlds?:) and btw i have a 3200 stall and also a 1 7/8 headers

[Ktlplxm]

I will be ordering a camshaft dod delete package soon!
how big can i go for a daily driver???
I was thinking lowest 224/230 and highest 240?
i know tigger has a 240!

I think the 224/240 is a pretty efficient cam. Good power, good torque, and I get better mileage than most...26-27 highway

[jdeserio]

I think the 224/240 is a pretty efficient cam. Good power, good torque, and I get better mileage than most...26-27 highway

224/240 or 224/230?

[Patrick G]

hey man, thanks for the good info. So your opinion of what would be the perfect cam for daily driver and a good racer is a 218/226 .595/.598 112LSA +2 advance? that seems a little small..but im down for whatever works the best in both worlds. what would you pick honestly for the best of both worlds?:) and btw i have a 3200 stall and also a 1 7/8 headersIt's really easy to get caught up in the "my cam is the biggest" contest. But think about the rpm your motor is at when running the 1/4 mile. If you have a stock torque converter, the motor spends a painful amount of time in the 1500-2500 rpm range. If your power is soft right here, your 60' times are going to be really bad. Too much overlap or a cam with too much duration and a wide LSA will be slugs off the line. You must run a high stall converter with these cams or you'll wind up being slower than the stock cam up to the 330' mark.

Once you're going down the quarter mile, you have a 1500 rpm window to operate in. If you shift at 6000 rpm, you need a cam that makes best power between 4500 and 6000 rpm. If you shift at 6500 rpm, you need a cam that makes best power between 5000-6500 rpm. This means that a cam that makes peak power at 6500 rpm is not going to be the strongest between 5000-6500 rpm. Next, look at your finish line rpm. If you are finishing in 4th gear, chances are good that your rpm is in the 5000-5500 rpm range. Here, a cam that makes maximum power at 6500 rpm will not help you. Heavy cars with tight torque converters need cams that make massive mid-range power.

As an example, I used to own a Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 with the 6.1L hemi. There are lots of similarities between the 6.1 Hemi and the L76/LS3 motor. This was a 4800 lb vehicle. I ran with a 214/218 114LSA cam with stock heads and my ET was 12.12 at 113mph (on motor). There are many other people around the country with SRT8 Jeeps with much bigger cams and ported heads, but very few ran quicker than my cam-only Jeep. Why? Because while their combos made sexy looking dyno peak power at 6500 rpm, they were soft in the mid-range and my combo smoked them at the track. My 60' times with stock converter were 1.68 while theirs were in the mid to upper 1.7s. The moral? Over-camming makes for sexy dyno graphs, but loses races in a street/strip application.

Now if you take the time to run a 4000+ stall, more gear, better traction mods, and some considerable weight reduction, you can go faster with more cam. But if you go bigger than what I had recommended, be prepared to fly-cut valve reliefs in your pistons too. The huge 2.165" intake valve does not give the generous piston to valve clearance like a 2.0" stock LS1 intake valve, but it flows TONS more air so it doesn't need near the duration or overlap to make the same power. For what it's worth, an L92/LS3 head makes the same power as an LS1 head with around 6 degrees less intake duration and overlap. A 218/226 cam in an L76/LS3 would be like running a 226/226 cam in an LS1. That is not a small cam in the LS1 world. It's usually considered ideal from a daily driven street/strip standpoint. The 227/235 would be more like a 234/235 cam in an LS1.

[Patrick G]

I think the 224/240 is a pretty efficient cam. Good power, good torque, and I get better mileage than most...26-27 highwayNot sure if you're referring to this cam being in a 427 or a 6.0L. For what it's worth, a 224/240 cam in a 427 would behave like a 212/228 cam in a 6.0L. Just want to keep things in perspective.

[fiveoh]

Great info!

[jdeserio]

It's really easy to get caught up in the "my cam is the biggest" contest. But think about the rpm your motor is at when running the 1/4 mile. If you have a stock torque converter, the motor spends a painful amount of time in the 1500-2500 rpm range. If your power is soft right here, your 60' times are going to be really bad. Too much overlap or a cam with too much duration and a wide LSA will be slugs off the line. You must run a high stall converter with these cams or you'll wind up being slower than the stock cam up to the 330' mark.

Once you're going down the quarter mile, you have a 1500 rpm window to operate in. If you shift at 6000 rpm, you need a cam that makes best power between 4500 and 6000 rpm. If you shift at 6500 rpm, you need a cam that makes best power between 5000-6500 rpm. This means that a cam that makes peak power at 6500 rpm is not going to be the strongest between 5000-6500 rpm. Next, look at your finish line rpm. If you are finishing in 4th gear, chances are good that your rpm is in the 5000-5500 rpm range. Here, a cam that makes maximum power at 6500 rpm will not help you. Heavy cars with tight torque converters need cams that make massive mid-range power.

As an example, I used to own a Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 with the 6.1L hemi. There are lots of similarities between the 6.1 Hemi and the L76/LS3 motor. This was a 4800 lb vehicle. I ran with a 214/218 114LSA cam with stock heads and my ET was 12.12 at 113mph (on motor). There are many other people around the country with SRT8 Jeeps with much bigger cams and ported heads, but very few ran quicker than my cam-only Jeep. Why? Because while their combos made sexy looking dyno peak power at 6500 rpm, they were soft in the mid-range and my combo smoked them at the track. My 60' times with stock converter were 1.68 while theirs were in the mid to upper 1.7s. The moral? Over-camming makes for sexy dyno graphs, but loses races in a street/strip application.

Now if you take the time to run a 4000+ stall, more gear, better traction mods, and some considerable weight reduction, you can go faster with more cam. But if you go bigger than what I had recommended, be prepared to fly-cut valve reliefs in your pistons too. The huge 2.165" intake valve does not give the generous piston to valve clearance like a 2.0" stock LS1 intake valve, but it flows TONS more air so it doesn't need near the duration or overlap to make the same power. For what it's worth, an L92/LS3 head makes the same power as an LS1 head with around 6 degrees less intake duration and overlap. A 218/226 cam in an L76/LS3 would be like running a 226/226 cam in an LS1. That is not a small cam in the LS1 world. It's usually considered ideal from a daily driven street/strip standpoint. The 227/235 would be more like a 234/235 cam in an LS1.

ok i understand what you mean. So with my 3200 stall i'll think ill just go with the 218/226. thanks for all the info. i have 361rwhp/400rwtq, after the cam install and milled heads what kind of numbers do you think i would be looking at? i was thinking around 420-30rwhp.

[fiveoh]

The Livernois stage 1 224/230 .581/.592 114LSA cam is ground with Comp XE-R lobes which are good for making power, but I don't like them with heavy L92 intake valves. The acceleration and jerk of XE-R lobes require that you run dual valve springs and the valvetrain stability is not as good as some newer custom lobes.

A 218/226 .595/.598 112LSA +2 advance is about ideal for a street/strip G8 with headers. Heavy vehicles like the G8 need more mid-range punch and too much duration and too late of an intake valve closing point will make you slower in the 1/4 mile. You could also run this cam on a 114LSA with 4 degrees of advance if you were leaning more toward 99% daily driving and less toward strip action.

If you were running headers and a 3200+ rpm stall converter, you could run something more like a 227/235 .614/.621 113LSA +3 advance. This is about as big as I'd recommend in a street strip combo that could still be daily driven. Anything bigger would have too many drivability downsides to justify the increased power. Remember, the L92/LS3 heads don't need near the duration or overlap as the cathedral port heads on LS1s and LS2s.

Patrick would this 218/226 .595/.598 112LSA +2 cam be dod friendly? Or are you of the opinion the DOD is junk and should be scrapped?

[Patrick G]

Patrick would this 218/226 .595/.598 112LSA +2 cam be dod friendly? Or are you of the opinion the DOD is junk and should be scrapped?IMO, DOD is worth keeping, but you have to run a different cam lobe profile to be AFM/DOD compliant. The DOD lifters cannot tolerate more than around .295" lobe lift (around .500" with a 1.7 ratio rocker arm) and they need slower ramp rates off the seat to stay happy. A proper DOD cam will have different duration on the DOD lobes than the others. If you're going to keep DOD, it would be better to have a little less overlap than the 112LSA cam to be happier in 4 cylinder mode which happens between 800-2500 rpm. A proper DOD cam would be 218/226 .500"/.500" 114LSA +4 advance on the non-DOD lobes and 220/228 .500/.500" 114LSA +4 advance on the DOD lobes. I am seriously considering running this exact cam in my G8. I like AFM and would like to keep the fuel economy savings benefits of it while making a bunch more power.

[fiveoh]

IMO, DOD is worth keeping, but you have to run a different cam lobe profile to be AFM/DOD compliant. The DOD lifters cannot tolerate more than around .295" lobe lift (around .500" with a 1.7 ratio rocker arm) and they need slower ramp rates off the seat to stay happy. A proper DOD cam will have different duration on the DOD lobes than the others. If you're going to keep DOD, it would be better to have a little less overlap than the 112LSA cam to be happier in 4 cylinder mode which happens between 800-2500 rpm. A proper DOD cam would be 218/226 .500"/.500" 114LSA +4 advance on the non-DOD lobes and 220/228 .500/.500" 114LSA +4 advance on the DOD lobes. I am seriously considering running this exact cam in my G8. I like AFM and would like to keep the fuel economy savings benefits of it while making a bunch more power.

Thank you for another informative answer. Any time frame for your cam swap? :)

[danf1000]

I call BS. Patrick don't know nothing.


Pay attention, Ladies, the secrets to the latest and greatest proprietary ls3 head cam designs are obviously stated here.

[Top Speed]

Anybody with a picture of a cam as his avatar must know what he is talking about! Great info!!!

[jdeserio]

i thought the dod cams weren't able to make the same kind of power a non dod cams could..thats why i deactivated afm...so i could put a non dod cam in to gain power..or i can i put a better dod cam in and turn afm back on and get better gas mileage??? and still be over 430rwhp? thats seems impossible..IMO

[Patrick G]

i thought the dod cams weren't able to make the same kind of power a non dod cams could..thats why i deactivated afm...so i could put a non dod cam in to gain power..or i can i put a better dod cam in and turn afm back on and get better gas mileage??? and still be over 430rwhp? thats seems impossible..IMOYou could get an AFM cam to get you over 430rwhp, but it would need to be quite a bit bigger than 218/226 and that would make it a pretty lousy cam in 4 cylinder mode between 800-2500 rpm. A 218/226 AFM cam with 1.85 rockers would make in the 410-420 rwhp range (with proper bolt-ons).

[micheal0484]

Wow, great thread. Patrick seems to know his cams! A++

[jdeserio]

You could get an AFM cam to get you over 430rwhp, but it would need to be quite a bit bigger than 218/226 and that would make it a pretty lousy cam in 4 cylinder mode between 800-2500 rpm. A 218/226 AFM cam with 1.85 rockers would make in the 410-420 rwhp range (with proper bolt-ons).

with my 3200 stall im not driving much between 800-2500 rpms. but i could if i drove very softly. to me a camswap isnt really worth it to only gain 40 rwhp..but to be around 450rwhp+ IMO is worth it. but i do plan to go FI some day..so going with a mild/moderate cam will definitely make more room for power in the future. I dunno what to do..

[G8-4-Speed]

You could get an AFM cam to get you over 430rwhp, but it would need to be quite a bit bigger than 218/226 and that would make it a pretty lousy cam in 4 cylinder mode between 800-2500 rpm. A 218/226 AFM cam with 1.85 rockers would make in the 410-420 rwhp range (with proper bolt-ons).

400+ ??? I can only hope.... we'll see how the .323" lobe holds up with DoD. If it does, it will have been more than worth it.

[GeorgeInNePa]

The Livernois stage 1 224/230 .581/.592 114LSA cam is ground with Comp XE-R lobes which are good for making power, but I don't like them with heavy L92 intake valves. The acceleration and jerk of XE-R lobes require that you run dual valve springs and the valvetrain stability is not as good as some newer custom lobes.

A 218/226 .595/.598 112LSA +2 advance is about ideal for a street/strip G8 with headers. Heavy vehicles like the G8 need more mid-range punch and too much duration and too late of an intake valve closing point will make you slower in the 1/4 mile. You could also run this cam on a 114LSA with 4 degrees of advance if you were leaning more toward 99% daily driving and less toward strip action.

If you were running headers and a 3200+ rpm stall converter, you could run something more like a 227/235 .614/.621 113LSA +3 advance. This is about as big as I'd recommend in a street strip combo that could still be daily driven. Anything bigger would have too many drivability downsides to justify the increased power. Remember, the L92/LS3 heads don't need near the duration or overlap as the cathedral port heads on LS1s and LS2s.

Pat,
Would this cam fit in a motor with heads shaved to provide 11 to 1 compression with-out fly cut pistons?

What would the torque curve look like for a G8 with this cam and ported exhaust ports? I'm interested in BIG torque to move this heavy beast.

(Greg should have my heads done soon. I'll have flow numbers... ;))

[Devilish34]

My guess would be no
BlackBerry8330/4.5.0.77 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105

[danf1000]

ugh. where is captain obvious when we need him?

this is what happens when people with $$ get into hot rods.

[Ktlplxm]

Not sure if you're referring to this cam being in a 427 or a 6.0L. For what it's worth, a 224/240 cam in a 427 would behave like a 212/228 cam in a 6.0L. Just want to keep things in perspective.

Actually I was referring to that camshaft when it was in both engines. It was great in the 6.0 as well as the the current engine.

[Ktlplxm]

ugh. where is captain obvious when we need him?

this is what happens when people with $$ get into hot rods.

Or in this case, when people with just $.02 does

[Patrick G]

Pat,
Would this cam fit in a motor with heads shaved to provide 11 to 1 compression with-out fly cut pistons?

What would the torque curve look like for a G8 with this cam and ported exhaust ports? I'm interested in BIG torque to move this heavy beast.

(Greg should have my heads done soon. I'll have flow numbers... ;))You probably would not have adequate P to V clearance. The 227/235 113LSA +3 cam only gives around .55-60" of intake clearance with stock un-milled heads. Some people run this tight, but it's closer than the recommended .080"/.100 P to V clearance for intake and exhaust. To get 11.0:1 SCR, you would need a flat mill of .030". You run a .030" milled head and your P to V would be .025-.030" with that cam.

In my opinion, you'll make more power with a larger cam at stock compression, than higher compression and a smaller cam that will fit without flycutting. This is mainly because once you get above stock 10.4:1 compression, the L76 and LS3 are very prone to spark knock. Much more so than cathedral port heads.

[Patrick G]

400+ ??? I can only hope.... we'll see how the .323" lobe holds up with DoD. If it does, it will have been more than worth it.From what I've been told, .294" is the lobe lift limit that Comp recommends for DOD lifters. Add 1.85 ratio rockers and you can get .544" lift at the valve. That's about as good as you can do.

If you run a fast ramped, high lift cam with DOD lifters, you should not expect them to live very long (Comp's words, not mine).

[Mike P]

Patrick G:

Question, not sure if you saw this earlier......



Question:

What are Comp XE-R lobes and how is the 218/226 .595/.598 112LSA +2 cam that you speak of, different from the Livernois Stage 1 cam with the Comp XE-R lobes?



Also, what would be an example of a "newer custom lobe"?




Thanks! :)

...




The Livernois stage 1 224/230 .581/.592 114LSA cam is ground with Comp XE-R lobes which are good for making power, but I don't like them with heavy L92 intake valves. The acceleration and jerk of XE-R lobes require that you run dual valve springs and the valvetrain stability is not as good as some newer custom lobes.

A 218/226 .595/.598 112LSA +2 advance is about ideal for a street/strip G8 with headers. Heavy vehicles like the G8 need more mid-range punch and too much duration and too late of an intake valve closing point will make you slower in the 1/4 mile. You could also run this cam on a 114LSA with 4 degrees of advance if you were leaning more toward 99% daily driving and less toward strip action.

If you were running headers and a 3200+ rpm stall converter, you could run something more like a 227/235 .614/.621 113LSA +3 advance. This is about as big as I'd recommend in a street strip combo that could still be daily driven. Anything bigger would have too many drivability downsides to justify the increased power. Remember, the L92/LS3 heads don't need near the duration or overlap as the cathedral port heads on LS1s and LS2s.

[Patrick G]

Patrick GWhat are Comp XE-R lobes and how is the 218/226 .595/.598 112LSA +2 cam that you speak of, different from the Livernois Stage 1 cam with the Comp XE-R lobes?
Also, what would be an example of a "newer custom lobe"?Comp Cams is the largest mfr of race cams. Their XE-R line of catalog lobes were developed around 2000 and at the time, they were the best hydraulic lobe for making power with an LS1. The power comes at a price though...valvetrain stability. The fast acceleration of the ramps of the XE-R lobes require careful selection of valvesprings, pushrods, and valve weight. This is because of very high degrees of acceleration and jerk (not a good thing for stability). The heavier the valves (like L76 intake valves) magnify this problem. Without a really stout valve spring, you will get premature valve float.

Since 2000, Comp has invested considerable time in Spintron testing. This is uses a high speed camera to record valvetrain action at very high rpm. Through testing, Comp uncovered some problems with old lobes and has rectified it with some of their newer lobes. Many lobes are available to the public (like the new LSL/LSR lobes) and some are not. The 218/226 .595/.598 112LSA +2 cam I referred to uses a more "endurance" type of lobe that matches the XE-R lobe in power, but it surpasses it in valvetrain stability, rpm potential, spring life, and noise reduction. Basically, you can rpm the same with a lighter spring or rpm higher with the same spring. This endurance lobe is carried by Engine Power Systems and is only available through them (as a custom lobe). It doesn't cost any more than a catalog lobe so it's gaining popularity.

[Mike P]

Wow! Patrick, thank you very much. That is really good cam information pertaining to specifics about lobes.

So, the LSL/LSR lobes equal the XE-R Comp Cam lobes in performance & surpass them in valvetrain stability. Again great information to know.

I think before it's all said & done, I'm more than likely going to swap out my current cam with one with a little less duration, but more overall lift. Kind of like the 218/226 .595/.598 114LSA +4 advance (good for power, but good for a daily driver).....

Thanks again! :)


P.S. - I wish I lived closer to Victoria, Texas! :)



...




Comp Cams is the largest mfr of race cams. Their XE-R line of catalog lobes were developed around 2000 and at the time, they were the best hydraulic lobe for making power with an LS1. The power comes at a price though...valvetrain stability. The fast acceleration of the ramps of the XE-R lobes require careful selection of valvesprings, pushrods, and valve weight. This is because of very high degrees of acceleration and jerk (not a good thing for stability). The heavier the valves (like L76 intake valves) magnify this problem. Without a really stout valve spring, you will get premature valve float.

Since 2000, Comp has invested considerable time in Spintron testing. This is uses a high speed camera to record valvetrain action at very high rpm. Through testing, Comp uncovered some problems with old lobes and has rectified it with some of their newer lobes. Many lobes are available to the public (like the new LSL/LSR lobes) and some are not. The 218/226 .595/.598 112LSA +2 cam I referred to uses a more "endurance" type of lobe that matches the XE-R lobe in power, but it surpasses it in valvetrain stability, rpm potential, spring life, and noise reduction. Basically, you can rpm the same with a lighter spring or rpm higher with the same spring. This endurance lobe is carried by Engine Power Systems and is only available through them (as a custom lobe). It doesn't cost any more than a catalog lobe so it's gaining popularity.

[Patrick G]

Wow! PatrickSo, the LSL/LSR lobes equal the XE-R Comp Cam lobes in performance & surpass them in valvetrain stability. Again great information to know.

I think before it's all said & done, I'm more than likely going to swap out my current cam with one with a little less duration, but more overall lift. Kind of like the 218/226 .595/.598 114LSA +4 advance (good for power, but good for a daily driver).....Actually, the LSL/LSR lobes from Comp surpass the XE-R lobes in power and stability. It was the custom EPS lobes (the 218/226 cam) that had the lobes that were equal to the XE-R lobes, but had all the better qualities. The LSL lobes still require that you run a stout dual spring. The EPS lobes do not.

[Mike P]

Actually, the LSL/LSR lobes from Comp surpass the XE-R lobes in power and stability. It was the custom EPS lobes (the 218/226 cam) that had the lobes that were equal to the XE-R lobes, but had all the better qualities. The LSL lobes still require that you run a stout dual spring. The EPS lobes do not.


Patrick - Thanks again..... I think it's just a matter of time before I order my final cam under what you advise. I'll get in touch with you off line (like email ect., / not directly in this thread).

Thanks again for all the great cam info. I'm definitely saving this thread's info....

Cool.... :)



...

[G8-4-Speed]

From what I've been told, .294" is the lobe lift limit that Comp recommends for DOD lifters. Add 1.85 ratio rockers and you can get .544" lift at the valve. That's about as good as you can do.

If you run a fast ramped, high lift cam with DOD lifters, you should not expect them to live very long (Comp's words, not mine).


Good info, I'll keep an eye on it. .294" lobe lift seems awfully close to stock, Usually factory leaves more room than that.

The cam lobe ramp should be stable enough according to Lunati with the springs and rockers I am using.

[ddcook08]

I think this one deserves a STICKY. Patrick :theman:

[wyldman]

IMO, DOD is worth keeping, but you have to run a different cam lobe profile to be AFM/DOD compliant. The DOD lifters cannot tolerate more than around .295" lobe lift (around .500" with a 1.7 ratio rocker arm) and they need slower ramp rates off the seat to stay happy. A proper DOD cam will have different duration on the DOD lobes than the others. If you're going to keep DOD, it would be better to have a little less overlap than the 112LSA cam to be happier in 4 cylinder mode which happens between 800-2500 rpm. A proper DOD cam would be 218/226 .500"/.500" 114LSA +4 advance on the non-DOD lobes and 220/228 .500/.500" 114LSA +4 advance on the DOD lobes. I am seriously considering running this exact cam in my G8. I like AFM and would like to keep the fuel economy savings benefits of it while making a bunch more power.

What kind of #'s do you think this cam would put out? Would you still run this cam if you had a little head work done while you had the motor apart?

I know...don't get caught up in the #'s game but still...

[Patrick G]

What kind of #'s do you think this cam would put out? Would you still run this cam if you had a little head work done while you had the motor apart?

I know...don't get caught up in the #'s game but still...You might have missed it. I addressed this in post #28.

A 218/226 AFM cam with 1.85 rockers would make in the 410-420 rwhp range (with proper bolt-ons). By proper bolt-ons I mean 1 7/8" long tube headers, high flow cats, under-drive pulley, ported intake manifold and TB, the aforementioned 1.85 rockers, 26918 springs, chrome-moly pushrods, and a razor sharp dyno tune. This kind of power plus close to 30mpg on the highway in 4 cylinder mode. Cut corners and expect to make less power. Add some properly ported heads and expect to make more power.

Just make sure that your head porter removes only the material that counts. Hogging out an L92/LS3 cylinder head is a recipe for disaster as the air speed would be horrible. You need to be more concerned with air flow numbers at .400-.500" lift than numbers at .600" (especially with a lower lift AFM grind).

[vic2186]

how about a 224/236 113lsa +4

[Mike P]

how about a 224/236 113lsa +4


That is pretty similar to my current cam which is.......

228/236 .588/.578 112LSA +4

I'm not sure which lobe it is ground on though (like Comp Cam XE-R, LSL, LSR).......




...

[GeorgeInNePa]

My guess would be no
BlackBerry8330/4.5.0.77 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105

Didn't think so but it was worth the question. ;)


ugh. where is captain obvious when we need him?

this is what happens when people with $$ get into hot rods.

So, were you born with all your knowledge?

Or did you ask a question or two along the way?

[wyldman]

You might have missed it. I addressed this in post #28.

A 218/226 AFM cam with 1.85 rockers would make in the 410-420 rwhp range (with proper bolt-ons). By proper bolt-ons I mean 1 7/8" long tube headers, high flow cats, under-drive pulley, ported intake manifold and TB, the aforementioned 1.85 rockers, 26918 springs, chrome-moly pushrods, and a razor sharp dyno tune. This kind of power plus close to 30mpg on the highway in 4 cylinder mode. Cut corners and expect to make less power. Add some properly ported heads and expect to make more power.

Just make sure that your head porter removes only the material that counts. Hogging out an L92/LS3 cylinder head is a recipe for disaster as the air speed would be horrible. You need to be more concerned with air flow numbers at .400-.500" lift than numbers at .600" (especially with a lower lift AFM grind).

Yes I did miss it. Sorry about that. I really do appreciate your time and know-how. Thanks. Gonna save this thread to favorites!

Where the hell are you going to find it though?

[1GXP4ME]

I was thinking about picking up this cam to gain power and be a little stealth would this be hard on valve train parts? And do you think it would work w/ stock exhaust for now?

PN:
GT11 L210065297

LSA 117.3

INT @ 50 215
INT valve Lift 0.628
EXH @ 50 232
Exh valve lift 0.641
Ovelap -11.0

[Patrick G]

I was thinking about picking up this cam to gain power and be a little stealth would this be hard on valve train parts? And do you think it would work w/ stock exhaust for now?

PN:
GT11 L210065297

LSA 117.3

INT @ 50 215
INT valve Lift 0.628
EXH @ 50 232
Exh valve lift 0.641
Ovelap -11.0Good cam with stock exhaust. Not a DOD cam by any means (too much lift). Be prepared to swap springs, lifters, and pushrods too.

[Devilish34]

Good cam with stock exhaust. Not a DOD cam by any means (too much lift). Be prepared to swap springs, lifters, and pushrods too.

He has a GXP ;)

[99-LS1-SS]

Patrick, while you're being bombarded with questions I'll throw another one at you.
I have a GXP M6. I plan on getting a supercharger at some point. I am also considering a cam. I would like to get the supercharger first but if I can't then I'll go the cam route. What cam specs would you recommend that will give a decent increase for my N/A motor but still do good after a supercharger?

[1GXP4ME]

do you think my pushrods and lifters would bo ok since I dont have DOD?

[Patrick G]

Patrick, while you're being bombarded with questions I'll throw another one at you.
I have a GXP M6. I plan on getting a supercharger at some point. I am also considering a cam. I would like to get the supercharger first but if I can't then I'll go the cam route. What cam specs would you recommend that will give a decent increase for my N/A motor but still do good after a supercharger?Something like the Livernois Stage 1C cam or the above mentioned LPE cam would work well if you want a shelf cam. They have moderate intake duration, generous exhaust duration, and wide LSA...all good for NA now and a blower later.


do you think my pushrods and lifters would bo ok since I dont have DOD?Lifters will be OK in a GXP, but stock springs and pushrods are not stout enough for a cam like that.

[09gtt]

do you think my pushrods and lifters would bo ok since I dont have DOD?

I thought the automatic gxp did have dod. Or is that just the camaros?

[ddcook08]

I thought the automatic gxp did have dod. Or is that just the camaros?

GXPs have no DOD.

[09gtt]

GXPs have no DOD.

My bad for some reason I thought the auto gxp had the l99 in it.

[G8-4-Speed]

Good cam with stock exhaust. Not a DOD cam by any means (too much lift). Be prepared to swap springs, lifters, and pushrods too.

I think when he says "change springs", he means like annually or just change your oil life gauge to spring life gauge.

You may need rockers also for that much lift. That is a crazy lobe lobe lift for a short duration cam on a street car.

[1GXP4ME]

So w/ that cam your not going to get say 30-50k miles out of a set of valve springs?

['02 ws6]

You can get around 30k+ miles on a good set of springs, but its good measure to check seat pressure every 10k-15k miles or so.

Good info btw Pat G. I'm running your 227/235 you spec'd for my TA over my previous Torqer 2, and the improvements were leaps and bounds!

Like he stated before, a properly spec'd cam to your rpm/driving preferences will outperform the big donkey dick cams. Peak dyno #s look cool, but mid-range hp wins races. :)
BlackBerry8830/4.2.2 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/104

[johnbell2]

He has a GXP ;)

Forget it, he's rolling.

[1GXP4ME]

Ok I come form turbo buick world where I got 60k miles out of springs on a .590 lift roller cam soon this car wont be a dd but still would like to get decent spring life w/ a cam because I still plan on driving the car on some long trips. The car will probably be driven 5-10k a year soon.

['02 ws6]

That's where lobe selection comes into play, like Pat G stated earlier. With XER lobes, you're going to be changing springs earlier than LSL/LSR lobes
BlackBerry8830/4.2.2 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/104

[Patrick G]

I think when he says "change springs", he means like annually or just change your oil life gauge to spring life gauge.

You may need rockers also for that much lift. That is a crazy lobe lobe lift for a short duration cam on a street car.What I meant in that sentence was, the stock L76 springs and even the LS3 springs are totally inadequate for any kind of fast ramped camshafts. You will need to upgrade to a quality beehive spring like a PAC Racing 1518 or a Comp 26918 at a minimum. If you run XE-R or LSL lobes, you might even need to upgrade to a dual spring. But for sure, stock springs are out.

With an endurance lobe (like the EPS lobes) and a quality beehive spring, I would not be surprised if you could get 40-60k miles out of a set. With an LSL lobe, probably less. With an XE-R lobe, a lot less (miles of spring life).

[jdeserio]

What I meant in that sentence was, the stock L76 springs and even the LS3 springs are totally inadequate for any kind of fast ramped camshafts. You will need to upgrade to a quality beehive spring like a PAC Racing 1518 or a Comp 26918 at a minimum. If you run XE-R or LSL lobes, you might even need to upgrade to a dual spring. But for sure, stock springs are out.

With an endurance lobe (like the EPS lobes) and a quality beehive spring, I would not be surprised if you could get 40-60k miles out of a set. With an LSL lobe, probably less. With an XE-R lobe, a lot less (miles of spring life).

Ok patrick one last question. and thank you for all your help!
what cam will give me more power the 224/230 stage one from livernoise or the 227/235 you were talking about?

[1GXP4ME]

With the cam I mentionted and comp 26921 springs how many miles do you think I could go in between changing valve springs?

[jdeserio]

You can get around 30k+ miles on a good set of springs, but its good measure to check seat pressure every 10k-15k miles or so.

Good info btw Pat G. I'm running your 227/235 you spec'd for my TA over my previous Torqer 2, and the improvements were leaps and bounds!

Like he stated before, a properly spec'd cam to your rpm/driving preferences will outperform the big donkey dick cams. Peak dyno #s look cool, but mid-range hp wins races. :)
BlackBerry8830/4.2.2 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/104

So how did this cam 227/235 cam run with you? you get some good power in the mid and lower mid range? I'm wondering if it will work good with my set up and 3200 stall..

[Patrick G]

Ok patrick one last question. and thank you for all your help!
what cam will give me more power the 224/230 stage one from livernoise or the 227/235 you were talking about?The 227/235 will make more power because it has more lift, more duration, and cam lobes that will rpm better.


With the cam I mentionted and comp 26921 springs how many miles do you think I could go in between changing valve springs?That's a very fast ramped cam. I'd check the springs every 12k miles and possibly change after 25-30k miles.

[jdeserio]

[QUOTE=Patrick G;150177]The 227/235 will make more power because it has more lift, more duration, and cam lobes that will rpm better.

How long can i expect my dual springs to last?

[Mike P]

I did a Google search on EPS cams that Patrick G was talking about, and found this cool thread on LS1 Tech. Now, I know that this thread pertains to LS1 engines, but cam information is cool. Especially referring to these EPS endurance cams compared to LSL and XE-R ones......

Anyways, here is the link..... :)


http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/1175468-pat-g-spec-cam-results-226-230-mike-norris-tuning.html




...

[Patrick G]

[QUOTE=Patrick G;150177]The 227/235 will make more power because it has more lift, more duration, and cam lobes that will rpm better.

How long can i expect my dual springs to last?I would think 40k miles.

[vic2186]

[QUOTE=jdeserio;150237]I would think 40k miles.

how do you fell about the xfi lobe??they are saying its better than the xer lobes

[jdeserio]

[QUOTE=Patrick G;150287]

how do you fell about the xfi lobe??they are saying its better than the xer lobes

i dunno, is it? i sure do want the best, i wish some body would just make a cam package for the car specs i have and my 3200 stall, so it would work perfect with my set up and as a daily driver..is that too much to ask?

[GeorgeInNePa]

[quote=vic2186;150292]

i dunno, is it? i sure do want the best, i wish some body would just make a cam package for the car specs i have and my 3200 stall, so it would work perfect with my set up and as a daily driver..is that too much to ask?

Get all your info together and get with Patrick G.

If you are doing heads, get flow sheets.

He can spec the cam for your combo.

['02 ws6]

So how did this cam 227/235 cam run with you? you get some good power in the mid and lower mid range? I'm wondering if it will work good with my set up and 3200 stall..

Well keep in mind that's in my TA with an LS6, so its behavioral manners will be night/day vs the L76.

My previous cam was a 232/234 .595/.598 113, and was advised by Pat G that particular cam was not a good high altitude cam as it made it hard for the atmosphere to pack the air in, had too long of duration which make sthe low end really soft (oddly named Torqer 2 lol), was hard on the valvetrain due to the "outdated" XER lobe, and left a lot of mid-range power on the table.

After going over my street/strip preferences, shift points, driving tendencies, preferred idle quality, he spec'd me that cam.

[Posidon42]

What would you recommend for a cam profile if I want to keep my stock converter and maintain AFM? As others have said, I like the idea of the cam, but really want to keep the AFM if possible. My goals are 400-425. I won't be doing this anytime soon, but I am starting my research. I will add an intake and probably the ARH 1 7/8" header and exhaust system.

[jdeserio]

[QUOTE=jdeserio;150237]I would think 40k miles.

Ok patrick, can you help me put together a cam package for my specs? I'm not the most knowledgeable about this stuff, but the obvious would my 3200 stall, 1 7/8 headers, I plan to have Precision Motorsports mill and port my heads while their off. It is a daily driver. I'm getting rid of DOD. Like you said, i want a cam that make alot of power in the middle range not all at 6,000 rpms, so it's not only fun on the track but at the street. whatever lobes are best and will last longer. There is a possibility of FI in the future. here is my dyno sheet, if this helps. Let me know what other specs you need from me.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2672/3955919746_12b0aa9256.jpg

[fiveoh]

[QUOTE=Patrick G;150287]

Ok patrick, can you help me put together a cam package for my specs? I'm not the most knowledgeable about this stuff, but the obvious would my 3200 stall, 1 7/8 headers, I plan to have Precision Motorsports mill and port my heads while their off. It is a daily driver. I'm getting rid of DOD. Like you said, i want a cam that make alot of power in the middle range not all at 6,000 rpms, so it's not only fun on the track but at the street. whatever lobes are best and will last longer. There is a possibility of FI in the future. here is my dyno sheet, if this helps. Let me know what other specs you need from me.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2672/3955919746_12b0aa9256.jpg


I'm pretty sure he specs cams as a side business so you'll want to contact him directly(pm or email) about that.

[Devilish34]

[QUOTE=jdeserio;150419]


I'm pretty sure he specs cams as a side business so you'll want to contact him directly(pm or email) about that.

Here is the link

http://guerragroup.com/camshaft_help.htm

[grandmacpubah]

[QUOTE=jdeserio;150419]


I'm pretty sure he specs cams as a side business so you'll want to contact him directly(pm or email) about that.

+1 the man's time is worth something.

[G8-4-Speed]

After running my new cam and gathering some logs it seems I may be floating the valves. Between 6200 and the 6250-6300 shift it seems to fall a little flat and the MAF start jumping 10-15 lb/min which is way more than normal. My cam is a Lunati 217/225 .598/.588 114 +4 , lift is using the 1.85 SLP rockers. Springs are the new Comp 918 125Lbs seat @1.800 367 lbs 1.150" installed @1.800. Considering I have the DoD lifters still in can it be floating the valves using the 1.85 rockers? Lunati claimed it would be fine with the rockers and springs but?????? OR is it just the cam with manifolds causing the issue? Never had the problem over-reving the stock cam....

I have room to shim the springs another .050" which looks to be next weekends project but if this fixes it, how long (miles) will it last.

[jdeserio]

[QUOTE=fiveoh;150627]

Here is the link

http://guerragroup.com/camshaft_help.htm
thanks man! i'll see what he can put together!
It's gonna be sick...

[Patrick G]

After running my new cam and gathering some logs it seems I may be floating the valves. Between 6200 and the 6250-6300 shift it seems to fall a little flat and the MAF start jumping 10-15 lb/min which is way more than normal. My cam is a Lunati 217/225 .598/.588 114 +4 , lift is using the 1.85 SLP rockers. Springs are the new Comp 918 125Lbs seat @1.800 367 lbs 1.150" installed @1.800. Considering I have the DoD lifters still in can it be floating the valves using the 1.85 rockers? Lunati claimed it would be fine with the rockers and springs but?????? OR is it just the cam with manifolds causing the issue? Never had the problem over-reving the stock cam....

I have room to shim the springs another .050" which looks to be next weekends project but if this fixes it, how long (miles) will it last.According to the people at Comp, you are way exceeding the lobe lift limits for the DOD lifters. They will self destruct with too aggressive of ramp rates. Also, they are heavy. This coupled with your heavy intake valves and high ratio rockers are most likely leading to nasty valve control issues.

[G8-4-Speed]

According to the people at Comp, you are way exceeding the lobe lift limits for the DOD lifters. They will self destruct with too aggressive of ramp rates. Also, they are heavy. This coupled with your heavy intake valves and high ratio rockers are most likely leading to nasty valve control issues.

bummer...
The lobes aren't too aggressive from what I am told but I'll get the lobe numbers at .200 and so on to see. I'll give a .050 shim a try to see if it shows improvement. If so than a upgrade to the double springs is needed for assurance of stability. If anything, the rockers are speeding things up too fast causing the issue. Could try the 1.7 rockers to see if things improve.

As far as destruction, time will tell.....If it is exceeding the limits, it sure doesn't sound unhappy. A little bit of a sowing machine but pretty quiet for .600 lift. Manifolds make it easy to hear anything.

Would like to know the weight differences between DoD and Non-DoD lifters.

[Patrick G]

bummer...
The lobes aren't too aggressive from what I am told but I'll get the lobe numbers at .200 and so on to see. I'll give a .050 shim a try to see if it shows improvement. If so than a upgrade to the double springs is needed for assurance of stability. If anything, the rockers are speeding things up too fast causing the issue. Could try the 1.7 rockers to see if things improve.

As far as destruction, time will tell.....If it is exceeding the limits, it sure doesn't sound unhappy. A little bit of a sowing machine but pretty quiet for .600 lift. Manifolds make it easy to hear anything.

Would like to know the weight differences between DoD and Non-DoD lifters.The numbers at .200" are not what cause the issues. It's the speed off the seat. Non DOD lifters can take a 50 degree rate from .006" to .050", but DOD lifters need about 10 degrees more (about 60 degrees). That means a 224 cam could have 274 degrees of duration at .006" for a non-DOD lifter, but 284 duration at .006" for the DOD lifter. Also, the DOD cams have a larger base circle than non-DOD cams. If you use a non-DOD base circle, the cams will wipe out the lifters in less than 1000 miles. And finally, the DOD lifters don't seem to be happy with more than .300" lobe lift (again, this is according to the engineers at GM and Comp). That would be .510" lift with a 1.7 ratio rocker and .555" with a 1.85 ratio rocker. Also, the DOD lifters can only take so much spring pressure. Going to duals may not be a solution for you. :(

[G8-4-Speed]

The numbers at .200" are not what cause the issues. It's the speed off the seat. Non DOD lifters can take a 50 degree rate from .006" to .050", but DOD lifters need about 10 degrees more (about 60 degrees). That means a 224 cam could have 274 degrees of duration at .006" for a non-DOD lifter, but 284 duration at .006" for the DOD lifter. Also, the DOD cams have a larger base circle than non-DOD cams. If you use a non-DOD base circle, the cams will wipe out the lifters in less than 1000 miles. And finally, the DOD lifters don't seem to be happy with more than .300" lobe lift (again, this is according to the engineers at GM and Comp). That would be .510" lift with a 1.7 ratio rocker and .555" with a 1.85 ratio rocker. Also, the DOD lifters can only take so much spring pressure. Going to duals may not be a solution for you. :(

Thanks for the info. Maybe I was better for not knowing.:hang:

The only thing would be the base circle, my preload didn't change so something doesn't sound right but I will recheck it to be sure. Also, it should be about half way through a set of lifters/cam since there is about 500 miles on it running in and out of AFM mode so I am commited now. 50 miles round trip to work. It's either all junk or soon to be or falls under the bumble-bee theroy, it just doesn't know its not suppose to work. Either way, I am sure to post something on how it holds out. Next weekend, weather permitting, it goes to the track.

[G8-4-Speed]

Thanks for the info. Maybe I was better for not knowing.:hang:

The only thing would be the base circle, my preload didn't change so something doesn't sound right but I will recheck it to be sure. Also, it should be about half way through a set of lifters/cam since there is about 500 miles on it running in and out of AFM mode so I am commited now. 50 miles round trip to work. It's either all junk or soon to be or falls under the bumble-bee theroy, it just doesn't know its not suppose to work. Either way, I am sure to post something on how it holds out. Next weekend, weather permitting, it goes to the track.

Checked the DoD cam base circle, it was the same on all the lobes from what I can tell.
Patrick,
Would like to cam doctor a DoD cam too see what it specs at from a cam grinders perspective?

Shimmed the springs and tested it. Seems to be just a dip in the power curve since it recovers and 6400 is fine. If nothing else, I feel better having a little extra pressure on the seat for control. ET and mph looked good at the track and seemed to match typical power increase from the cam. Needs a little more tuning. Would like to see what a set of headers will add...

[Devilish34]

Would like to know the weight differences between DoD and Non-DoD lifters.

If I remember I'll weigh them tonight

[G8-4-Speed]

If I remember I'll weigh them tonight


Thankss

[Crazy Paul]

Would like to know the weight differences between DoD and Non-DoD lifters.

I thought I had this info but can't find it now.
Anyway here's a pic which shows the difference between the lifters. These are the lifters from one bank only, so double this and that's a full L76 engine set of lifters.

4 AFM lifters shown on the left, 4 normal lifters shown on the right.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/PerthPurplePenguin/car%20parts/L76/AFM-lifters.jpg

[Patrick G]

Checked the DoD cam base circle, it was the same on all the lobes from what I can tell.
Patrick,
Would like to cam doctor a DoD cam too see what it specs at from a cam grinders perspective?

Shimmed the springs and tested it. Seems to be just a dip in the power curve since it recovers and 6400 is fine. If nothing else, I feel better having a little extra pressure on the seat for control. ET and mph looked good at the track and seemed to match typical power increase from the cam. Needs a little more tuning. Would like to see what a set of headers will add...The base circle of the DOD and non-DOD lobes will be the same. Check the base circle of your Lunati cam (or check with Lunati). I believe the factory DOD cam base circle is 1.55". You can confirm this since your stock cam is out of the car. The new DOD cams from Comp use 1.55" base circle (for both sets of lifters) while the non-DOD cams have closer to a 1.43" base circle.

[Executor999]

Something like the Livernois Stage 1C cam or the above mentioned LPE cam would work well if you want a shelf cam. They have moderate intake duration, generous exhaust duration, and wide LSA...all good for NA now and a blower later.

Would you recommend the Livernois Stage 1c cam minus a supercharger over the Livernois Stage 1 cam for a non-DOD daily driver?

[Patrick G]

Would you recommend the Livernois Stage 1c cam minus a supercharger over the Livernois Stage 1 cam for a non-DOD daily driver?Depends on the skills of your tuner. The Stage 1 will make slightly more power, but the Stage 1C will be a breeze to tune. Both are excellent and can be daily driven with proper tunes.

[Devilish34]

Thankss
Reg lifter 130grams. DOD lifter 157 grams
BlackBerry8330/4.5.0.77 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105

[todds87ss]

Those cups look similiar to the LS1 retaining cups. Anyone know if the "spin the cam and hope for the best" (also known as the russian roulette method) method will work for dod cam swap?

[jdeserio]

can we make this thread a sticky!!!????

[Crazy Paul]

Those cups look similiar to the LS1 retaining cups. Anyone know if the "spin the cam and hope for the best" (also known as the russian roulette method) method will work for dod cam swap?

Similar but not the same.
Gen4 (LS2,LS3,L76 etc) lifter trays will fit into LS1 but not the other way around. The Gen4 lifter trays have "triangular notches" in them to locate over the triangular locators in the lifter valley. LS1's didn't have those.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/PerthPurplePenguin/car%20parts/Non-dod_retainers_01.jpg

[G8-4-Speed]

Those cups look similiar to the LS1 retaining cups. Anyone know if the "spin the cam and hope for the best" (also known as the russian roulette method) method will work for dod cam swap?

Yes and no. They will stay up but not just by spinning the cam. You have to reach in there with a long scribe with a little "L" hook at the end and pull up the lifters by the cup retaining ring. I will try to get a picture since we have a dead LS1 in our shop.

[todds87ss]

LS1s I know...I'd like to see pics of the l76

[G8-4-Speed]

LS1s I know...I'd like to see pics of the l76


Well its the same, just know that you can pull the lifters up more than the cam will and you have to hook the DOD lifters with a piece of .040" safety wire and tie them off to the valve springs. Are you looking for pics on what I used to pull up the lifters or how I did the safety wire thing?

[G8-4-Speed]

The base circle of the DOD and non-DOD lobes will be the same. Check the base circle of your Lunati cam (or check with Lunati). I believe the factory DOD cam base circle is 1.55". You can confirm this since your stock cam is out of the car. The new DOD cams from Comp use 1.55" base circle (for both sets of lifters) while the non-DOD cams have closer to a 1.43" base circle.

From what I measured, stock DoD is @1.565", Lunati is @1.485".

[starfire350]

GM has a 219/228 525/525 112 hot cam they claim to have made 480hp in the ls3 it seems close to the livernoise stage one cam. how close is the hp in the livernoise cam package? GM also has a 227/239 551/551 108 they call it a statge 2 and a stage 3 that specs out at 223/276 595/595 107. Does any one have any similar cams or even the same cam and how are the dyno numbers?

[jdeserio]

just saying....THAT I LOVE MY CAMMED CAR :D

[hymey]

I'm running a 240-242-111+4 (with valve reliefs):)

[G8-4-Speed]

Disassembled a DoD lifter today to determine its mechanical limits.

-MAX available lifter bore travel with DOD active is .367"
-Max lifter spring travel to coil bind is .370"-(there is a .050" shim under the spring)
-DOD lifter travel is independent of lifter preload.
-Material, pin, and roller of the DoD lifter appears to be the same as the standard lifter. The biggest enemy of these lifters would be lifter bounce.

Aside from valvetrain dynamics, I don't see any reason why you can't run a .320" lobe lift cam and stay within the mechanical means of the lifter.