Twin, in tank fuel pump discussion thread

[Ktlplxm]

Some of the rest of us are going the twin intank route but using the existing mounting flange.

[Devilish34]

Some of the rest of us are going the twin intank route but using the existing mounting flange.


Twin tank or Twin Pump ??

[Ktlplxm]

Twin intank pump. No louder than stock, Supports over 1000rwhp.

[Andy@SquashPerformance]

Twin intank pump. No louder than stock, Supports over 1000rwhp.

Are you having to replace any fuel lines or is the pump/pickup the largest restriction?

Andy

[Ktlplxm]

To get the full benefit of the twin pumps its best to replace the feed lin with a -8. It then gets a return line added with a quality regulator so you have direct control over the fuel pressure. The rails are good on theses cars so they are reused

[SFC]

To get the full benefit of the twin pumps its best to replace the feed lin with a -8. It then gets a return line added with a quality regulator so you have direct control over the fuel pressure. The rails are good on theses cars so they are reused


I thought there were issues with with that setup when the tank started getting low. And I can't imagine it's cheap.

[Ktlplxm]

NOne has done this system in a G8, which has a different shape than the existing tanks, so there are no pre-existing concerns. Any large fuel system has issues when people let their tanks get too low, but this set-up, in an enclosed case, shouldn't have the tendency toward starvation that the exposed system did.
And you are correct; it is not cheap, but once again, nothing quality or worth having is. You know the old saying "You gotta pay to play". There may eventually be some cheap ways of doing these fuel systems, which people when then complain about the reliability, but for now, with each of us having to "pioneer" the solutions, they won't come cheap.

[It's A G8!]

And you are correct; it is not cheap, but once again, nothing quality or worth having is. You know the old saying "You gotta pay to play". There may eventually be some cheap ways of doing these fuel systems, which people when then complain about the reliability, but for now, with each of us having to "pioneer" the solutions, they won't come cheap.

Well said!!

[SFC]

NOne has done this system in a G8, which has a different shape than the existing tanks, so there are no pre-existing concerns. Any large fuel system has issues when people let their tanks get too low, but this set-up, in an enclosed case, shouldn't have the tendency toward starvation that the exposed system did.
And you are correct; it is not cheap, but once again, nothing quality or worth having is. You know the old saying "You gotta pay to play". There may eventually be some cheap ways of doing these fuel systems, which people when then complain about the reliability, but for now, with each of us having to "pioneer" the solutions, they won't come cheap.


So where is this setup coming from?

[Ktlplxm]

The system is coming from another well known Fuel system designer/modifier. I haven't thrown his name out yet so he will not be bombarded by people with questions about a kit he is currently working on. I've used the same style system in a Turbo'd LS1 TA and a T-Type. A few of the other higher HP guys on here have been brought into the loop and as soon as the rest of the testing is 100% complete, pricing, availability and timeframe will all be disclosed.

[norm8332]

I'm In! I'm just waiting for my OEM pump for the retrofit.

I hope this does it. I ordered the OEM pump, but who knows how long it's going to take to even get that. I'll be happy with being second, you can be the guinea pig.:)

[Ktlplxm]

I should be used to it by now lol. I've played the role enough

[G8GXP4now]

This may be irrelevant, but what sort of fuel system does the 2009 CTS-V use?

[Ktlplxm]

Not really sure. It wouldn't be a stretch to thinks its almost identical to the ZR1. Our factory pumps will support the same power they do with the Correct voltage and injectors. Plenty of us will put CTS-v numbers down. We seem to run out of fuel at approx 540-560 rwhp which is about 700 chp (factoring in a 20% loss).

[SFC]

The system is coming from another well known Fuel system designer/modifier. I haven't thrown his name out yet so he will not be bombarded by people with questions about a kit he is currently working on. I've used the same style system in a Turbo'd LS1 TA and a T-Type. A few of the other higher HP guys on here have been brought into the loop and as soon as the rest of the testing is 100% complete, pricing, availability and timeframe will all be disclosed.

I assume you're talking about the guy on LS1tech. He didn't actually make it a secret.

[Ktlplxm]

Don't know. I never use LS1tech anymore, too many technical regurgitators. What I do know is mine is the first he's building and is the prototype for the future systems.

[99-LS1-SS]

I wonder if you could use the fuel pump/injectors that the LS9 uses?

[Ktlplxm]

Those are 60lb injectors, not sure of the pump, but from what I've heard, that system still only supports what our 2300 owners are getting with the BAP and the same injectors

I put a call out to Greg at pace to see what he can find

[parish8]

i ran a twin intank set up from racetronics in one of my past projects. it was a sweet drop in/plug and play set up BUT it did suck air when i floored it and had less than 3/8 a tank of fuel. to get the two pump to fit they cut up the stock fuel bucket.

no idea if that will be a problem with whatever this new set up is.

[Ktlplxm]

I cannot say for sure, but since the G8's have a crossover or equalization system in play in the fuel pumps it should not be as much of an issue. The crossover comes from the fuel pump canister to the opposite side of the tank where the level sending unit is to keep a constant supply available. The bucket is being dropped (as well as the pick up) just for this precaution. Some twin pump set-ups have fuel starvation issues because they do not take into account the fact hat the twin pumps will suck a bucket dry; that is one of the first concerns being addressed in this system

[SFC]

I cannot say for sure, but since the G8's have a crossover or equalization system in play in the fuel pumps it should not be as much of an issue. The crossover comes from the fuel pump canister to the opposite side of the tank where the level sending unit is to keep a constant supply available. The bucket is being dropped (as well as the pick up) just for this precaution. Some twin pump set-ups have fuel starvation issues because they do not take into account the fact hat the twin pumps will suck a bucket dry; that is one of the first concerns being addressed in this system


So what kind of time frame are we talking about? I can wait till maybe spring and that's about it.

[GTPprix]

Yeah but no bucket means fuel starvation while cornering at low fuel levels ;)

[Ktlplxm]

Yeah but no bucket means fuel starvation while cornering at low fuel levels ;)

I stated the bucket was dropped, not ditched or eliminated. The bucket is still retained so that the Venturi system and crossover pipe are still in place. I would have loved the separate pumps like you were trying, but never heard anything else on it. lol you aren't the easiest person to get in touch with =)

[Ktlplxm]

So what kind of time frame are we talking about? I can wait till maybe spring and that's about it.

I don't have the patience for spring either. I want to enjoy it nice cool weather:windy:
The first prototype is expected in about two weeks. Once it is installed and tuned the car will go through a series of test for reliabilty. Although I will not drag race the car much, I plan on doing testing at the track for low-mid level fuel starvation under initial accelleration. Secondly, we will test it around a road course at the same levels to see how it responds to cornering and elevation changes. Lastly, and my particular forte, it will be used for flat out top end acceleration, to see if a continual pull for more than a small time frame. In other words, will the pumps continue to pressurize the lines for a full mile. If it fails any of these test we will already have a second design being built. If in the event a slosh seems to be an serious issue, fuel tank foam can be added with a minimal volume loss. And before someone points out the fuel level sender arm, that is being taken into account in the event of the introduction of the foam.
The low fuel level starvation issues have been issues in plenty of high hp applications. One of the easiest ways of dealing with it is to pay attention. If your tank gets too low, don't drive too aggressive:no: After all, even factory set-ups get screwy under low fuel/extreme G conditions.

[99-LS1-SS]

Bump for all of the interest related to my car and the fuel system.

[norm8332]

I still have interest also I'm waiting for a drop-in that will use the stock lines etc.

[Ktlplxm]

I still have interest also I'm waiting for a drop-in that will use the stock lines etc.

The problem with that is getting a large enough pump that will still be able to use a single stock line. An internal spring regulated pressure valve isn't terribly reliable nor conductive to a lot of flow (one of the major reasons since the C5 vette and 4th gen Fbodies they have been ditched for traditional regulators). You then also run into getting the internal Venturi effect to draw fuel from both sides, as well as pressure bleed, and re-priming the system. I'm doing a different configuration on this second project than I did the first one (primarily due to the fact that the requirements for 600 hp are way easier to obtain than the requirements for 700-800-900+)

[MGM GT]

And you are correct; it is not cheap, but once again, nothing quality or worth having is.

Condoms are cheap and worth having in some situations...


But on a serious note... at what point is the stock pump out of breath on a cammed/nitrous setup? I know the blower setups are usually 550'ish but thats having to work a little harder then a N/A car.

[GeoffA]

Have you high HP guys checked out Livernois lately?


http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product.phtml?p=2047

[norm8332]

Have you high HP guys checked out Livernois lately?


http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product.phtml?p=2047

Isn't that for the Camaro? Will it fit?

[Tempest2000]

another company I can't remember the name had something similar and I asked the same question... bottom line it was a I dunno maybe LOL

[GeoffA]

Isn't that for the Camaro? Will it fit?

I was looking under the G8 accessories and that popped up. I don't know if it will, but I'm sure the vendor will chime in...

[Ktlplxm]

Condoms are cheap and worth having in some situations...


But on a serious note... at what point is the stock pump out of breath on a cammed/nitrous setup? I know the blower setups are usually 550'ish but thats having to work a little harder then a N/A car.

you should be able to get another 50-75 hp without the FI


Isn't that for the Camaro? Will it fit?

The problem is the little feed line... the pumps won't make a bit of difference if the line volume remains constant. A single 3/8" or -6 line isn't big enough for much above 600-700 chp. Even if it were, the interior diameter of a factory line never flows any more than its smallest point. If you have a bad bend or crimp in the line you're kinda screwed. Another point to consider; wiring. You're asking a marginally wired electrical system to handle double its intended load (how many fuel pumps has Norm been through?). The wiring isn't hard to tackle in the first place, and larger gauge wires will handle the strain much better than the little 18-16 gauge the factory specs call for.

[MGM GT]

you should be able to get another 50-75 hp without the FI

Cool, thats what I figured but wanted to hear someone else say it to make me feel better :cheers:

And just to be clear thats with/without a BAP?

[Ktlplxm]

No BAP. I try not to use them or consider them in estimates

[MGM GT]

No BAP. I try not to use them or consider them in estimates

Perfect!

[Livernois Motorsports]

Isn't that for the Camaro? Will it fit?

Unfortunately, it won't work because the G8 needs a manual bypass valve to relieve the excess fuel pressure, whereas the Camaro uses voltage to control pressure.

Regards,

Rick LeBlanc
Livernois Motorsports

[Ktlplxm]

Unfortunately, it won't work because the G8 needs a manual bypass valve to relieve the excess fuel pressure, whereas the Camaro uses voltage to control pressure.

Regards,

Rick LeBlanc
Livernois Motorsports

So the camaros have the aggravating variable voltage crap that Ford used on the Mustangs for so long? I hated the crap in the Saleen

[Andy@SquashPerformance]

Unfortunately, it won't work because the G8 needs a manual bypass valve to relieve the excess fuel pressure, whereas the Camaro uses voltage to control pressure.

Regards,

Rick LeBlanc
Livernois Motorsports

Do you know if the Camaro setup will bolt into the G8 tank? Are you changing anything else with this (fuel hard lines, adding a return, etc)? If it "bolts" into the G8 tank I could make up a simple PWM controller to control the fuel pressure, which is what I wanted to do in the first place.

Andy

[Andy@Livernois]

Do you know if the Camaro setup will bolt into the G8 tank? Are you changing anything else with this (fuel hard lines, adding a return, etc)? If it "bolts" into the G8 tank I could make up a simple PWM controller to control the fuel pressure, which is what I wanted to do in the first place.

Andy

we haven't tried it in a G8 tank, so i can't say for certain, But yes it uses a diver module similar to what Ford has...