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Thread: P0174 Issue, 09 G8 GT

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    VIP Member STL_G8GT's Avatar
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    Default Drifting LTFT @ Idle, 09 G8 GT

    Chasing a P0174 on a 09 G8GT. At startup and entering CL, (at idle) bank 2 will go up 1.6/2.3/3.1 until the ltft climbs a couple points. After the ltft adjustment, the stft will steady for a moment and then add 1.6-3.1 until the ltft jumps again. It will continue this to up past +15% ltft on that bank alone. If I disable ltft, the stft will push past 15%. This is all behavior at idle. It's possible that this issue follows (gets worse) engine temperature rising. Otherwise, I don't understand why the fuel trim wouldn't immediately climb the 15% it eventually settles at. Bank1 trails between 5 and 10 behind Bank2.

    (Edit: I went back and reviewed logs from 2013, which are the oldest I have. I had a +5 differential on Bank2 vs Bank1 at idle. I wasn't able to view a log to see if that number climbed over time, however after acceleration or deceleration and then idle (such as at a stop sign), the fuel trims drop to B1:0/B2:+5)

    Fuel pressure is measured at the drivers manifold on the s/c, and reads correct @ 42 psi at idle. It's a boost referenced system and has shown no changes from previous readings.

    Here's the rundown:
    2009 G8 GT, 38k miles
    Rotofab intake, PatG Cam w/ls7 lifters & pac beehives, ARH 1-7/8, ID850 injectors @ 10k miles
    Ported Mag2300, RCR Heads, ls7 maf, CTSV pump with vaporworx controller @ 17k miles. (pac beehives were tested at this point and spec'd out as like new)
    Upgraded 4" intake, exhaust work (Added midmuffler) @ 35k miles
    Swapped Comp Trunions for Smith Bros bushings @ 38k miles

    The car sits and isn't driven October through June each year.

    About a month ago I tossed around the idea of going to the 09.5 ecm. So I swapped in the ecm and we started the tune... but before we could make any progress, the tuner recommended that I look for a vacuum leak or misfire on bank2. I swapped coils, plugs, injectors, new injector orings, wires from bank to bank and the problem stayed on bank2. That was the first I knew of the issue.

    I ditched the ecm swap, went back to my original and the issue is still there. This is when I did the trunion to bushing swap, so it's not part of the issue. The two mods that happened between the last log without the issue (in 2015 I have a log without the issue present - but the trim differential of Bank2 +5% trims is present) were the exhaust work taking out the xpipe and replacing it with a mid muffler and the change to a 4" intake tube.

    Here's what's I've tried so far...
    +Swapped all fuel/ignition components bank to bank.
    +Cleaned injectors on the bench, twice. Ensured s/c crossover lines were clear. (fuel enters on bank 1)
    +Swapped o2 sensors bank to bank.
    +Smoke tested the top of the engine. Had some seeps at the catch can and maf adapter, addressed those. Held the supercharger bypass open for this test to allow smoke past the blower. No smoke near intake manifolds under blower tub.
    +Disabled injectors 1 by 1 in HPTuners & disconnected each coil manually, each produced a noticeable change.
    +Smoke tested the exhaust. Had seeps near clamps on the exhaust by the axleback, addressed pretty well. Could see a very trace amount near the bank 2 collector but wasn't able to pinpoint.
    +Tried propane near each header primary to manifold connection and each fuel injector oring. No change.
    +Replace spark plugs (cyl 2 still "browns" first, and darker) (5/18)
    +Removed and replaced header gasket on Bank2 (5/19)
    +Verified rockers move with cam, all lifters "lift"
    +Slightly raised idle fuel pressure (5/19)

    Things I haven't done yet...
    Pull the blower and install new intake gaskets.
    Remove the header for a real close look for cracks/damage.
    Remove the heads and look for valve damage/cylinder condition.


    I don't know where to go from here... any suggestions welcome!
    Last edited by STL_G8GT; 06-05-2018 at 01:27 PM.
    2009 PBM G8 GT
    Pat G 218/226 & TSP Dual 660s, ARP Bits, DSteck Tuned, Magnacharger Chrome 2300 1:1, RCR Ported/Polished TB, Blower, & L92 Heads w/ LS3 intake valves, Smith Brothers Trunion Bushing Kit, ARH 1 7/8 Magnaflow MidMuff/Solo Axlebacks, RotoFab, VaporWorx PWM 1:1 fuel system, ID1050x injectors
    Mike Norris Motorsports Catchcan, AEM 30-4100, JHP Boost/Fuel Gauge Pod
    TSW Nurburgring Matte Gray 18" w/Nitto 555 & 555R, Satin Black SS Brembo Fronts, BMR Trailing Arms, Pedders Sway Bars, Whiteline Bushings
    Gloss Black Valve Covers, 6k HID, V6 Handles, Interior/License Plate LEDs, Debadged, Holden Black Trim, Polk Dxi, GXP diffusor, a few bits from Crazy Paul

    Originally Posted by TonyKarter
    Anyone who has ever worked on a car has been in your position, and sitting cross-legged on a concrete floor with a dim shop light is its own kind of hell... Chalk it up as one of the rites of passage.
    RIP Charlie - GRRRR8
    RIP Chris Wells - Panzer Leader

  2. #2
    Moderator, Retired -Ray-'s Avatar
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    Sell it.
    Rest in Peace Charlie!

    BMR, Brembo, Circle D, Comp Cams, Crazy Paul's Holden parts,
    Gforce axles, GRRRR8.net SS bolt kit and heater hoses, LandSpeed Development,
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichsGreyGT View Post
    this site is hardcore modding central.

  3. #3
    VIP Member STL_G8GT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Ray- View Post
    Sell it.
    Have you thought about a career as a motivational speaker? ;-)
    2009 PBM G8 GT
    Pat G 218/226 & TSP Dual 660s, ARP Bits, DSteck Tuned, Magnacharger Chrome 2300 1:1, RCR Ported/Polished TB, Blower, & L92 Heads w/ LS3 intake valves, Smith Brothers Trunion Bushing Kit, ARH 1 7/8 Magnaflow MidMuff/Solo Axlebacks, RotoFab, VaporWorx PWM 1:1 fuel system, ID1050x injectors
    Mike Norris Motorsports Catchcan, AEM 30-4100, JHP Boost/Fuel Gauge Pod
    TSW Nurburgring Matte Gray 18" w/Nitto 555 & 555R, Satin Black SS Brembo Fronts, BMR Trailing Arms, Pedders Sway Bars, Whiteline Bushings
    Gloss Black Valve Covers, 6k HID, V6 Handles, Interior/License Plate LEDs, Debadged, Holden Black Trim, Polk Dxi, GXP diffusor, a few bits from Crazy Paul

    Originally Posted by TonyKarter
    Anyone who has ever worked on a car has been in your position, and sitting cross-legged on a concrete floor with a dim shop light is its own kind of hell... Chalk it up as one of the rites of passage.
    RIP Charlie - GRRRR8
    RIP Chris Wells - Panzer Leader

  4. #4
    Beyond Help tchr49's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STL_G8GT View Post
    Have you thought about a career as a motivational speaker? ;-)
    Takes too long to get to the point
    things are not what they appear to be.....

    2009.5 Liquid Red,Onyx Red, Premium Package, e85 Surprise Package

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    VIP Member STL_G8GT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tchr49 View Post
    Takes too long to get to the point
    Yeah, sometimes I wish he was more direct.
    2009 PBM G8 GT
    Pat G 218/226 & TSP Dual 660s, ARP Bits, DSteck Tuned, Magnacharger Chrome 2300 1:1, RCR Ported/Polished TB, Blower, & L92 Heads w/ LS3 intake valves, Smith Brothers Trunion Bushing Kit, ARH 1 7/8 Magnaflow MidMuff/Solo Axlebacks, RotoFab, VaporWorx PWM 1:1 fuel system, ID1050x injectors
    Mike Norris Motorsports Catchcan, AEM 30-4100, JHP Boost/Fuel Gauge Pod
    TSW Nurburgring Matte Gray 18" w/Nitto 555 & 555R, Satin Black SS Brembo Fronts, BMR Trailing Arms, Pedders Sway Bars, Whiteline Bushings
    Gloss Black Valve Covers, 6k HID, V6 Handles, Interior/License Plate LEDs, Debadged, Holden Black Trim, Polk Dxi, GXP diffusor, a few bits from Crazy Paul

    Originally Posted by TonyKarter
    Anyone who has ever worked on a car has been in your position, and sitting cross-legged on a concrete floor with a dim shop light is its own kind of hell... Chalk it up as one of the rites of passage.
    RIP Charlie - GRRRR8
    RIP Chris Wells - Panzer Leader

  6. #6
    VIP Member STL_G8GT's Avatar
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    Cylinder Plug for #2 (the first cylinder in bank 2) is darker than any other plug on that bank, by a mile. Not oily or wet, just dark/sooty.
    2009 PBM G8 GT
    Pat G 218/226 & TSP Dual 660s, ARP Bits, DSteck Tuned, Magnacharger Chrome 2300 1:1, RCR Ported/Polished TB, Blower, & L92 Heads w/ LS3 intake valves, Smith Brothers Trunion Bushing Kit, ARH 1 7/8 Magnaflow MidMuff/Solo Axlebacks, RotoFab, VaporWorx PWM 1:1 fuel system, ID1050x injectors
    Mike Norris Motorsports Catchcan, AEM 30-4100, JHP Boost/Fuel Gauge Pod
    TSW Nurburgring Matte Gray 18" w/Nitto 555 & 555R, Satin Black SS Brembo Fronts, BMR Trailing Arms, Pedders Sway Bars, Whiteline Bushings
    Gloss Black Valve Covers, 6k HID, V6 Handles, Interior/License Plate LEDs, Debadged, Holden Black Trim, Polk Dxi, GXP diffusor, a few bits from Crazy Paul

    Originally Posted by TonyKarter
    Anyone who has ever worked on a car has been in your position, and sitting cross-legged on a concrete floor with a dim shop light is its own kind of hell... Chalk it up as one of the rites of passage.
    RIP Charlie - GRRRR8
    RIP Chris Wells - Panzer Leader

  7. #7
    VIP Member STL_G8GT's Avatar
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    Cold engine compression test has all cylinders on bank 2 @ 165. Bank 1 ranges from 162 to 165.
    2009 PBM G8 GT
    Pat G 218/226 & TSP Dual 660s, ARP Bits, DSteck Tuned, Magnacharger Chrome 2300 1:1, RCR Ported/Polished TB, Blower, & L92 Heads w/ LS3 intake valves, Smith Brothers Trunion Bushing Kit, ARH 1 7/8 Magnaflow MidMuff/Solo Axlebacks, RotoFab, VaporWorx PWM 1:1 fuel system, ID1050x injectors
    Mike Norris Motorsports Catchcan, AEM 30-4100, JHP Boost/Fuel Gauge Pod
    TSW Nurburgring Matte Gray 18" w/Nitto 555 & 555R, Satin Black SS Brembo Fronts, BMR Trailing Arms, Pedders Sway Bars, Whiteline Bushings
    Gloss Black Valve Covers, 6k HID, V6 Handles, Interior/License Plate LEDs, Debadged, Holden Black Trim, Polk Dxi, GXP diffusor, a few bits from Crazy Paul

    Originally Posted by TonyKarter
    Anyone who has ever worked on a car has been in your position, and sitting cross-legged on a concrete floor with a dim shop light is its own kind of hell... Chalk it up as one of the rites of passage.
    RIP Charlie - GRRRR8
    RIP Chris Wells - Panzer Leader

  8. #8
    Moderator, Retired -Ray-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STL_G8GT View Post
    Have you thought about a career as a motivational speaker? ;-)
    I'd like to remain anonymous.

    Have you considered you have an under performing spark plug? Perhaps consider a spark plug in a higher heat range for that location.
    Rest in Peace Charlie!

    BMR, Brembo, Circle D, Comp Cams, Crazy Paul's Holden parts,
    Gforce axles, GRRRR8.net SS bolt kit and heater hoses, LandSpeed Development,
    Livernois, Lunati, Pedders, White auto media
    Under more construction.


    Just a GT


    Quote Originally Posted by RichsGreyGT View Post
    this site is hardcore modding central.

  9. #9
    VIP Member STL_G8GT's Avatar
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    I replaced all plugs in it, but will watch that first cylinder. Not sure it's actually connected to my issue... because...

    Today I swapped fuel injectors bank to bank, tried a known good coil out of the truck, and put in new plugs. Issue persisted on the same side.


    I took it for a drive and noticed something right away... If I'm idling in Park or Neutral, the issue is present. As soon as I put it in gear, the trims even out. So basically this is an issue only when the engine is under no load at all, which is a bit odd.

    If I ignore the dark plug, and chalk it up to another issue (maybe a fouled injector that I cleaned when I swapped, or something along those lines), then I still just have a lean on bank 2 issue. With that in mind, most of my research points me to an exhaust leak on that side before the o2. The only things I have not changed are the intake gaskets and the exhaust manifold gaskets. There's also the possibility that my header is physically damaged itself, somewhere on either the collector or the manifold. I've got a different smoke machine coming tomorrow and I'm going to try and smoke the exhaust again with the car hot as that's when the issue is worst.

    That smoke test will happen tomorrow and hopefully I'm further down the road with this thing.
    2009 PBM G8 GT
    Pat G 218/226 & TSP Dual 660s, ARP Bits, DSteck Tuned, Magnacharger Chrome 2300 1:1, RCR Ported/Polished TB, Blower, & L92 Heads w/ LS3 intake valves, Smith Brothers Trunion Bushing Kit, ARH 1 7/8 Magnaflow MidMuff/Solo Axlebacks, RotoFab, VaporWorx PWM 1:1 fuel system, ID1050x injectors
    Mike Norris Motorsports Catchcan, AEM 30-4100, JHP Boost/Fuel Gauge Pod
    TSW Nurburgring Matte Gray 18" w/Nitto 555 & 555R, Satin Black SS Brembo Fronts, BMR Trailing Arms, Pedders Sway Bars, Whiteline Bushings
    Gloss Black Valve Covers, 6k HID, V6 Handles, Interior/License Plate LEDs, Debadged, Holden Black Trim, Polk Dxi, GXP diffusor, a few bits from Crazy Paul

    Originally Posted by TonyKarter
    Anyone who has ever worked on a car has been in your position, and sitting cross-legged on a concrete floor with a dim shop light is its own kind of hell... Chalk it up as one of the rites of passage.
    RIP Charlie - GRRRR8
    RIP Chris Wells - Panzer Leader

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    VIP Member donkeyGT's Avatar
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    2009 GT PBM Sport/Premium Packs
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